Lacto-fermenting Vegetables

[roygee]

In a different thread I promised to post some picture of the vegetables that we put by for Winter. I took some pictures of what we have stored so far in our root cellar and here they are.

[tomatoman223]

Nice!!!Where in the world did you find those rubber gasket canning jars?I haven't seen any of those since Granny was canning when I was a kid(and thats been a couple of years ago,LOL).

[roygee]

Mail order since I live faraway from any sizeable town. Initially I found the round jars made by Luminarc at fantes.com but they do not seem to carry them anymore. There is an Italian manufacturer that sells square jars under the Fido brand and they seem to be more available. Just do a search for "fido glass". If you have a kitchenware store nearby they may be able to order them for you.

Although one can use them as canning jars, I do not can the lacto fermented foods as it would kill all the living beneficial bacteria in there.

[tomatoman223]

Hmm...your method of putting up vegetables sounds interesting.Now,off to look for your old thread as I seemed to have missed it somehow:).

Thanks for the name of the jars,I will do some searching if the method is do-able for my limited talent in preserving food-stuff!

[roygee]

If you can put your hands on a book called Wild Fermentation By Sandor Ellix Katz, it contains all the information you would need to get going.

[tomatoman223]

A quick google on Katz brought up lots of sources for the book you mention.Thank you,I'll be ordering soon.Sounds very interesting!

[Emerald]

Having just borrowed and read and reread "Wild Fermentation" that was recommended by Roygee-- I have to say, It is now on the book list for Christmas/Birthday gifts!!:D And if I feel adventurous (I will be trying the Miso recipe, as miso soup is a fave of mine.) So Thanks Roygee!! you all keep fermenting!!;):D

[Colojd]

Your title is interesting - I did read earlier this spring that some fermented vegetables actually have the acidophilius type bacteria and I never knew that. For example it said pickles have one kind, olives another, etc.

Can you tell us a little more about this? Apparently they have the good bacteria that helps digestion.

[roygee]

Emerald, you are welcome, I am glad you liked the book.

Colojd, I will ask my wife about the acidophilus and will get back to you. She is the expert.

[genuineimitation]

if you want another source for lacto-fermented vegetables folks, check out the weston a. price foundation website and the "nourishing traditions" cookbook by sally fallon.

http://www.westonaprice.org

[roygee]

Hi - this is Roygee's wife writing at his request since I put up all the lacto-fermented vegetables and have been giving talks and demos around here about it. This is really catching on in our community. There is a lot of interest in methods of putting food by for the winter without using energy. The beauty of lacto-fermentation is that it is easy, been tested for many, many thousands of years, ever since people needed to preserve food for the winter months when there was no electricity nor fancy canning equipment, and the end result is food that is MORE nutritious than if you ate it straight out of the garden. In fact, looking on the internet for different recipes on lacto fermenting pears, since it seems it will be a good year for them, I came upon a website by some physician who compared the 3 ways of consuming vegetables, raw, cooked or lacto-fermented. He said of the 3 methods, the lacto-fermented preparation was best because it INCREASES the nutritional content of the food, and enhances your body's absorption of those nutrients. I have no difficulty believing that.

Dolojd -- yes indeed, lacto fermentation is how you create acidophilous bacteria. In fact, the full name of this beneficial bacteria is lactobacillus acidophilous. The lactobacillus family has thousands of "members". Check out your yougurt. You will probably see something like L. bulgaricus, L. acidophilus, etc. on the ingredient statement. It is called "lacto: because its activities were first observed on dairy products. But the bacteria exists primarily on vegetables, leaves, grasses, and other vegetation. The animals, ruminants, get it from the grasses they eat. And then they ferment it in their stomachs. The process of fermentation allows the lactovacillus to, among other things, synthesize vitamins, particularly the B vitamins, some believe the elusive vitamin B12, vitamin C and more.

The effect of eating living fermented foods is very beneficial to the digestive system, but many other systems as well because it allows the body to absorb nutrients that would otherwise be difficult to take in. Other systems that are positively affected are reproductive, skin, teeth, and more.

We are still eating kimchee we put up on July 18 of last year. It is perfect nearly 14 months later. I think it keeps this long because of the glass jars that we have been using for the past 3 years. They eliminate the "maintenance" that accompanies the process when you ferment in open containers -- removing the mold that may form (harmless). Here is a story of Capt. Cook who sailed for 27 months around the world. He packed 60 barrels of saurkraut into his ship, and 27 months later opened his last barrel to let some visitors who had come onto his ship taste it. They liked it so much that they asked him for the remaining contents. And none of his sailors, after 27 months at sea, in all different climates, had lost teeth or developed rickets, which was the scourge of sailors.

There is a lot more to tell, but this post would become very long, so I will stop here and do my best to answer any questions you may have.

Genuineimitation: I am familiar with Sally Fallon's Nourishing Traditions. There are good things in the book, but many that I find are incorrect. For example she is really big on using "whey", except that most of the cultures that lacto ferment foods do not use whey in the process (except, of course, in dairy products). In fact, none of the oriental cultures have any dairy products in their traditional diets at all! Lacto fermentation is accomplished via the use of brine -- that is salt and water in precise proportions. No whey. No cooking because heat destroys the lactobacillus. Ask the Japanese, the Koreans, creators of Kimchi, the Chinese, etc. In the West, olives are all lacto-fermented; so is sauerkraut. There is no whey in either of these, and yet these cultures have a strong dairy component to their diets. Furthermore, I suspect that the WestonPrice organization, with its address in Washington DC is actually a lobby group now.

Okay, I could keep going but I will stop here and will try to answer questions if there are any.

[Emerald]

Here is a big WELCOME!!! And one question-- Can I use the leftover brine from a jar of fermented veggies to jump start another batch?? Like when you use a bit of your last yogurt to start the new batch of yogurt.
Plus I like to add about 1/4 cup of brine from the dill pickles to my morning tomato juice to give it that added zing.

[tomatoman223]

Thanks Roy and wife,very interesting stuff indeed.My copy of Katz's book has been ordered.

Emerald-I have been drinking brine from commercial pickles for years,so your not alone.The family still looks at me like I've lost my mind when I enjoy a glass full:D!

[Emerald]

Thanks Roy and wife,very interesting stuff indeed.My copy of Katz's book has been ordered.

Emerald-I have been drinking brine from commercial pickles for years,so your not alone.The family still looks at me like I've lost my mind when I enjoy a glass full:D!

Even tho I don't have to worry about my salt intake-- I do limit it to about 1/4 cup at time-- a whole glass full would probably make me bloat :eek:all that salt!! lol But I love my pickle brine-- another secret I have-- pickle brine on fresh tomatoes and onions-- just let them sit for about an hour-- yummmmy!

[AnaM]

Roygee (my DH) says I should have my own post name, so this is it. I will see if I can come up with an image.

Emerald and tamatoman223: the brine is quite healthful, so don't just throw it away. I have never used "old" brine to jump start a new batch, you don't need to jump start anything since the fermentation kicks in within minutes and is visible in just a few hours. What we do, however, is use the brine from bottles where we have eaten all the pickles to flavor some pickles that we had canned via hot water bath. We find that it vastly improves the flavor. Besides the fact that there are a lot of really good nutrients in the brine. You can also add it to soups -- don't boil it !! so that you do not kill that beneficial bacteria. Just add it after the soup has cooled off a bit. Same for miso, by the way. NEVER boil miso, you kill the beneficial bacteria there too if you boil it. Adding the brine to a drink is a good idea. My power drink in the morning is adding a tablespoon of home-made apple cider vinegar and a teaspoon of homemade miso to my morning glass of home made tomato juice. None of these are pasteurized, but that is the whole point. We sometimes use brine instead of salt to season our food. Has many more nutrients. Our Japanese breakfast consists of brown rice with a bunch of different lacto-fermented veggies on it. Saves on the cooking.

[roygee]

About using brine to jump start the next generation: Assuming that you are not using chlorinated water, I do not see the need to add old brine. However if you are using chlorinated water even though it is not recommended, I would say go ahead and use old brine.

I saw an old recipe for string beans whereby they are slightly cooked for 10 minutes to soften them up and then brined. Since all the lacto bacillus was killed, the author used old brine to regenerate the bacillus activity.

Otherwise as DW says.

[Emerald]

I read several recipes that stated that for a mixed veggie ferment, that you should steam your green beans for at least 3 minutes or they could make you sick-- but most of the other veggies would be fine raw-- and if I was doing dilly beans I always sneak a few cucumbers in as it seems to make a better end product. I was just wondering about adding the left over, end of the jar brine to another crock as I had one batch with just outstanding flavor, and had wanted to pass that flavor to the next crock.. Cuz as you know every ferment does taste different, even with exactly the same stuff in each.

I ferment in large glass cookie jars, and the large one gallon restaurant pickle jars, and after reading AnaM's post-- I know now that by using the lids on them, that is why I don't get a lot of the bloom/scum on top, I wondered if that would make a difference in flavor. And while I would prefer to use a nice big ceramic crock for my sauerkraut, I have been using plastic food grade 5 gallon buckets-- my correlle ware dinner plates fit in great for holding down the cabbage-- All my pickles and sauerkraut are stored, unprocessed, in my canning jars in the fridge as I don't have a nice cold place to store them-- at least my mom has 2 fridges and lets me put my pickles and stuff there-- but I do have to share with her and my baby bro!:D
Someone online suggested that I vacuum pack my sauerkraut and freeze it-- would the good bacteria survive being frozen??
(sheesh! I feel like I am hyjacking your thread with all my questions:o)

[AcidRain23]

Question: How important is your room temperature in the process?
I did a batch of half sours recently that went bad-
My guess is that they went off because ambient temp in room was around 78-80F.
Think that is the case? Unfortunately I do not have central air so I may have to wait for cooler weather to try again. Problem with that is that cucumbers will be long gone by then! Thoughts?

[AnaM]

Emerald: when I lacto-ferment my green beans I just cut them to size and put them in brine. No cooking of any sort. I know that some people do blanch them first. I just hate to cook !!! I don't even blanch things like broccoli or cauliflower, just cut them up and straight into the bottle, cover with brine. When I started out I used those food grade 5 gallon buckets, and you are right, they are easy to use because you can put a dish in it and that works very well to keep the greens below the waterline which is the water seal. But, over time, I wanted to get away from using plastic, even food grade plastic, and I discovered these jars, which I LOVE. I considered the crocks, but they are already pretty heavy when empty, and good crocks cost a bundle. Considering how expensive they can be, and how much I put up, I cannot afford to buy all the crocks I would need. I cannot answer the question about vaccum packing the sauerkraut and freezing it because I have never done it, never felt the need to. It just seems like more handling to me and I like to do less, not more work. BTW, don't worry about "hijacking" my thread !

If you are interested, this is the link where I got those jars. They now have the Fido and Le Parfait brands. Notice they are called "storage jars" and it says they are not meant to be used for canning. But lacto-fermenting is not canning, so no problem. Here is the link: http://fantes.com/jars.html. Or else if you have a good kitchen supply store near you, they can probably order them for you. We live far from town, so the internet is the way to go for us.


AcidRain 23 - I do not think that room temperature of 78-80 would make your pickles go off, unless you kept them there for a long time. I start putting pickles away in July, when room temp is probably low to mid 70s. I try to do it in a cooler area of the house, but we have no a/c. I keep them there for just a few days; in the summer the fermentation kicks in much more quickly than other times of year. As soon as you see a healthy ring of little bubbles around the top of your container, then you bring the ferment down into a cooler place, like a root cellar if you have one, where it will continue to ferment, but very slowly. You should also keep the fermenting container out of direct sunlight since that will hinder the fermentation. BTW what makes you say that they went off?

[TastyofHasty]

roygee and AnaM, those are very interesting pictures of your lacto-fermented vegetables. This post, and roygee's earlier post on Durgan's natto thread, are making me much more interested in fermenting vegetables. This is another way to preserve vegetables! And doesn't involve all the hassle of canning! That is exciting, plus the nutritional benefits are also enticing. I will have to try growing cabbage again ... though I haven't had much luck with cabbage YET.

Here is another webpage about lacto-fermentation, which you are probably familiar with, done with kefir:
http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirkraut.html

[genuineimitation]

roygee - have you seen the book "keeping food fresh - old world techniques and recipes" by the gardeners and farmers of terre vivante? eliot coleman wrote the forward. i think it is right up your alley! there is a whole chapter on lacto fermentation, along with drying, etc.. only problem is some of the recipes are a little vague - sort of 'a pinch of this and a pinch of that', but i think you'd find it interesting.

and, as for weston price, i would agree they are a lobbying group, though they are so left wing, i'm not sure we are talking about the same kind of lobbying! they mostly try to get raw milk legalized, so who's going to listen to that??? i'm sure the dairy industry doesn't even bother with them! a gnat in their proverbial soup!

and as to their advocation of whey fermentation -- i agree, there are many cultures that don't use dairy in their fermenting. i've tried a few of the fermenting recipes in nourishing traditions and i've never really liked them (and my kids won't even think of touching them) so i've pretty much given up! we love the other recipes in the book though!! and, we get incredible "live" saurkraut at our local co-op. i know i should make it myself, but the stuff we get is sooooooo good, i've never wanted to even try to compete!

[roygee]

genuineimitation, actually I do have the book "Keeping Food Fresh". It has good ideas but as you say it is pretty vague about quantities and proportions. As it happens, I have another book from the Terre Vivante people written by their founder Claude Aubert and the title translates into something like: Traditional Fermented Foods. It has not yet been translated into English yet, and it is a pity because it is well written and well documented.

[herb girl]

Wow, awesome thread. AnaM-you are where I want to be! I did make a 5 gallon bucket of sauerkraut that was very good this summer. We eat it all winter long. I wanted to do pickles, but sadly, they all died from wilt. Thanks for all the info. People really need to be made aware of incredible benefits of lacto-f. food!

As to whey in recipes, I agree. Whey in sauerkraut made if really "off" tasting. Although I must say I just had some awesome dill pickles from an Amish friend that used whey. But generally, you don't need it.


As to the comment of weston price foundation. Whoaa!! I believe completely in their mission to legalize raw milk. If it weren't for raw milk I'd still be drinking soy-milk (disgusting!). Raw milk is more nutritious and easier to digest. Do some research before you disparage them. They have done A LOT for small farmers in general and are a huge support to family farms. Not so sure where the "left wing" comment comes from. As amazing as it may seem, there are a huge number of people that drink, and believe in legalizing raw milk.
And yes, they are an annoying voice to the huge Ag/dairy cartel in this country.......good!

Raw milk is an important part of MANY world cultures and their fermented milk products. Kefir, yogurt, cheese's........yes they can be made with pasteurized milk but traditionally are made (for thousands of years) with RAW milk.

We regularly make kefir and yogurt.

AnaM, ever try Kombucha? It's a family favorite around here (fermented tea). Takes a little like champagne and full of probiotics.

[Emerald]

I just read thru a huge thread on Lacto-fermenting at another good forum, it has some good questions and answers..
http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=426207
I was thinking of joining this one too. but I spend too much time online now... Such dilemas.

[AnaM]

HerbGirl - yes, I made kombucha for quite a while, except that I ended up with a whole bunch of mothers that I couldn't find a home for. Considering that I was the only one drinking the stuff, because it was too acid for anyone else to tolerate, I stopped. Since then, we have been making our own apple cider vinegar and kombucha became history in our household.

Re westin price, I do not contest their promotion of raw milk, even though we do not eat dairy. What I do contest is their desire to have people use whey in vegetable preparations where the original recipe -- like kimchi -- never called for it. As you know, there is no dairy in traditional oriental diets not in Japan, China or Korea, yet they promote whey in those preparations. Olives are lacto-fermented, yet none of the cultures that eat olives, and they do also consume large quantities of dairy, use whey in olives ! I was not aware they were a left-leaning organization either. BTW, we make our own soymilk, soy yogourt. It is far superior to the commercial variety, as homemade seems to always be. Same for tempeh -- we make our own and when we sold it at the farmers market, I had people repeatedly tell me it was the best tempeh they had ever eaten in their life. It was nice to hear, and surprising too. I did not think I was doing anything extraordinary, just cooking the soybeans and grains and fermenting them. Makes you wonder what the commercial brands are doing.

Emerald -- I put up zucchini for the first time 4 days ago. I used salt, no water because the zucchini releases its own water. After 3 days, the fermentation was proceeding, but very slowly, or so it seemed to me. We added one tbsp of brine from another bottle, and the fermentation took off like a rocket. A little too much, I think, so we rushed it to a cool place to slow it down. Thanks for the tip.

[herb girl]

Would you be willing to share your recipe for tempeh? I would so LOVE to have some but have never tried making it.

Just started my kombucha today. If you drink it at just the right time, there shouldn't be much acid in it. In fact it is sweet and bubbly. If you let it go too long it definitely gets more powerful, like vinegar.
We add grape juice right before it's done and it's incredible, just like grape soda but not too sweet.

[Emerald]

Would you be willing to share your recipe for tempeh? I would so LOVE to have some but have never tried making it.

Just started my kombucha today. If you drink it at just the right time, there shouldn't be much acid in it. In fact it is sweet and bubbly. If you let it go too long it definitely gets more powerful, like vinegar.
We add grape juice right before it's done and it's incredible, just like grape soda but not too sweet.

Funny you should talk about Kombucha-- I know that if you use the search function on here there are a couple of others who make it.. but I just read about it on another site and Now I want to try it too, but never having had it, I wonder if I would like it? Do you do a second ferment? to make it fizzy? All these new things will make a gal like me dizzy-- I must have ADD :D I want to learn to do everything, while never ever getting to be a pro at anything-- how goofy is that. Jill of all trades but master of none.. At least I will be able to keep family from starving if the prices of stuff keeps going up and up.

[Emerald]

AnaM I am glad that something that I wanted to do worked ok for you-- Now I know that if I take some of the best brined pickles and share with new batch it should help stablize the flavors a bit, not that I am really picky about my pickles.
Sometimes it just pays to have a brain that never stops running-- some of the stuff that my brain thinks up is wacky but sometimes it works.. EM:D

[herb girl]

make a gal like me dizzy-- I must have ADD :D I want to learn to do everything, while never ever getting to be a pro at anything-- how goofy is that. Jill of all trades but master of none.. .

Em, your a girl after my own heart. Oh how I identify with that thought!

PM me if you want a mushroom and instructions for kombucha.
It's ridiculously easy but most people are nervous when they first make it 'cause its
something most people have never even heard of. But it's simple.....really. :)
You can become a pro in no time!

[AnaM]

Herb Girl - the best advice I can give you about making tempeh is to get a pack of tempeh starter at Gem Cultures, it will cost you $3.00 for enough starter to make 5 pounds or $5.00 for enough to make 18 pounds. That comes with very specific instructions, step-by-step on how to make tempeh. The link is: http://www.gemcultures.com/soy_cultures.htm right to the soy page. When I give my tempeh presentations, I do not give the recipe, because people have to buy the starter and the recipe is there. What I do talk about are the operational logistics, because they can be daunting.

If you decide to try and make the tempeh, I recommend that you buy yourself a thermometer with a probe. I also recommend that the first few times you make it, you make it with soybeans only, until you have a clear idea of the process. Then you can progress to adding other grains to the soybeans. When I sold the tempeh, I had 6 different varieties. They all had soybeans, but were combined with different grains. You will need something that acts like an incubator, and a heat source. My operation was deliberately "primitive", to prove that you could make this with everyday items. Let me know if you decide to go ahead with this, I'll be glad to share the things I learned along the way.

[FiberFlinger]

A quick google on Katz brought up lots of sources for the book you mention.Thank you,I'll be ordering soon.Sounds very interesting!

I am a member of his web forum on fermentation, just google Wild Fermentation.

[Emerald]

Em, your a girl after my own heart. Oh how I identify with that thought!

PM me if you want a mushroom and instructions for kombucha.
It's ridiculously easy but most people are nervous when they first make it 'cause its
something most people have never even heard of. But it's simple.....really. :)
You can become a pro in no time!

Your so sweet!! But I think that I am going to hit up one of the Healthfoodstores next time I'm in town and see if I can buy a bottle first- to taste it, and if I like it you might hear from me!!;) I wouldn't mind a little scoby living in my cupboard! But, Right now I have so many things going that I wouldn't have room for another jar fermenting along here.. lol

And I found some of the jars here in the store that was recommended by either Roygee or AnaM-- but they only have the 1 gallon Fido jar-- it is $5.99 is that a good price, and if I ask maybe they will stock the larger 2 gallon or bigger jars-- I didn't even know that all the little quart jars with the rubber seal and metal latch that I have been buying at yard sales were Fidos-- I just liked the look for all of my odd and ends in the kitchen.. Such a happy day!:D

[herb girl]

Em,

Try more than a few different kombucha brands as they differ quite a bit in taste. Some are stronger (vinegar) and some are more "fruity", and they don't really taste like the homemade kind either.
Kinda like bread..........store, artisan and homemade, all very different.

Thanks AnaM, will spend time on the site today.

[Emerald]

Em,

Try more than a few different kombucha brands as they differ quite a bit in taste. Some are stronger (vinegar) and some are more "fruity", and they don't really taste like the homemade kind either.
Kinda like bread..........store, artisan and homemade, all very different.

Thanks AnaM, will spend time on the site today.

I just called the local HFS and found out that they have in stock this week the ST'Daves synergy in raspberry and in Grape. and that he likes to get the different flavors in off and on- so I hope that one of those is a good one, as I will be buying one of each flavor when I get to town next.. Golly I am all excited now!! makes me want to get the hubby and drive there tonite.. And on another site, that synergy name came up quite alot as one that is good for someone to try if they haven't had it before.

And Bumping up this thread for a question on Pickles that Juliet has.

[FiberFlinger]

Emerald, the kombucha, in its original form is fermented in Tea. Someone might have perfected a fruit fermentation but it might also be a combination of fruit juice and kombucha. I always wondered if the mother would like grape juice or apple juice as some of it tastes like apple juice with a fizz. That is until it turns to vinegar like any apple juice.

[FiberFlinger]

Oh, and here is an update on Kimchi Pickles. Someone had a recipe, somewhere that they made with fish sauce, garlic and red pepper to. Well I thought I would adjust the recipe to fit into the fermentation going on here at home. I had a half gallon of sliced cucumber rings fermenting and at the point when they were tasty, I packed some in a quart jar with mucho garlic, and about 1 tablespoon of crushed red pepper. I put 1/2 cup of fish sauce in the quart and filled the remaining jar up with the fermentation liquid. Let it set out over night and tasted them the next day. Oh wow. I have to admit it is a bazaar taste but I really liked it. A crunchy, hot, garlicy, and fishy pickle. I'm already thinking about making more and wishing I had not given away all those cucumbers.

[Emerald]

Emerald, the kombucha, in its original form is fermented in Tea. Someone might have perfected a fruit fermentation but it might also be a combination of fruit juice and kombucha. I always wondered if the mother would like grape juice or apple juice as some of it tastes like apple juice with a fizz. That is until it turns to vinegar like any apple juice.

Since someone told me it would be good for my digestion, I have been reading all about it. The flavored stuff is the plain kombucha with a bit of fruit juice of pieces of fruit put in at the 2nd ferment. So what it looks like is that they make the kombucha, and when it is ready they strain it (or decant it) into a second bottle with the fruit or juice, cap it and put it on the counter for anywhere from 2 to 5 days and then put in the fridge and that way it gets fizzy. The mother scoby then gets put into another batch of sweet tea to make more.. But I have only read about it and I haven't even got to the tasteing of it yet:o But I will be getting a bottle to try, if I like it Herb girl has offered to send me a baby scoby. And another web site said to try the fruit ones first too, and see if I like it.
Do you like it Fiberflinger? And if it does get to tasting like vinegar, can you still use it to maybe put in salad dressing (like italian?)?

I just must like to read stuff as when I get interested in something -- I tend to go and research it to death and then do it.. but it works sometimes-- I don't tend to make as many mistakes as I would going in cold.

[TastyofHasty]

I've always liked to read, but lately I've noticed how nice it is to watch some of the youtube videos; they are usually reasonably short and very informative about how to do something ... for instance, here's one on how to make kimchi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeBR91ypxk4&feature=related

I wonder what exactly sort of radish that is she's cutting up? betcha it would grow here!

[roygee]

Thanks for the video, very interesting, although we make our kimchi a bit differently. As far as the radishes are concerned, I get my korean radish seeds from a small company called Evergreen Seeds, http://www.evergreenseeds.com/orientalradish.html but keep in mind that some will bolt in the Summer heat. For the longest time we used Daikon radishes because that was available, they are stronger and sharper tasting than the Korean ones.

[FiberFlinger]

Do you like it Fiberflinger? And if it does get to tasting like vinegar, can you still use it to maybe put in salad dressing (like italian?)?


I used to, but it wasn't all what I expected. I found it more just an enjoyable drink than a medical remedy. There is a period after it starts that it is very much like apple cider, then it turns to absolute vinegar taste. I could never remember to catch the apple cider (which I liked) before it turned. and I could only use so much vinegar. Yes it can be used on salads, etc. At that time, 1986 I did not know about the body's ph requirements. Did not know about that until I met hubby at present. The all knowing Ja Sri Babba. ( or in English, , yes sury baby) So there was gallons of the stuff I was chucking and 8 inches of mother. She liked me and kept growing. Enough was enough. It was too time consuming. So out they went.

[herb girl]

It's so easy to add a juice, just 24 hours before the kombucha is done, add 1 part juice to the mix and in about 10 to 24 hrs it will be ready. IF you let it go, however, it will turn to vinegar rather quickly.
I bottle mine at the fizz stage and keep in the fridge for up to a week. Our favorite is grape.
Really, really good!

[Emerald]

It's so easy to add a juice, just 24 hours before the kombucha is done, add 1 part juice to the mix and in about 10 to 24 hrs it will be ready. IF you let it go, however, it will turn to vinegar rather quickly.
I bottle mine at the fizz stage and keep in the fridge for up to a week. Our favorite is grape.
Really, really good!

Well I went and bought two different bottles of synergy kombucha, one with grape and one with raspberry-- I liked them both-- once you get past that vinegar smell and take a sip- the fiz is surprising and the taste is different- reminded me of sparkling hard cider with no alcohol after kick-- no after taste at all! I think that I like the grape one the best-- but I did cheat a bit and added a touch of organic apple juice to put just a touch of sweet in there, even more yummy-- I can see why folks get addicted to it.
One of the bottles even had a small baby scoby in it and I found directions on how to make a big mother scoby from it so I have it in a clean glass jar with coffe filter on to held down by ring and it is just floating there on the top-- it said that in about 4 to 5 days you should be able to see it get thicker so I have high hopes for this little shop of horrors experiment! Once it gets a bit thicker than you have to start feeding it!! and to brew up 1/2 batch of tea/sugar and then wait again for about a week and then feed the other 1/2 batch of tea/sugar.. And it is off to the races!!
I even got the hubby to taste it-- he said that The smell was a bit off putting but it tasted ok.. I think if I make it myself that he will probably like it better.But If my experiments fail I think that you will hear from me!!;) As I find kombucha very refreshing, I just can't believe that I had never heard of it before now.

[FiberFlinger]

They are not as delicate as led to believe. As a matter of fact I was never able to kill the suckers no matter how I made the tea. They must be from outer space.

[genuineimitation]

As to the comment of weston price foundation. Whoaa!! I believe completely in their mission to legalize raw milk. If it weren't for raw milk I'd still be drinking soy-milk (disgusting!). Raw milk is more nutritious and easier to digest. Do some research before you disparage them. They have done A LOT for small farmers in general and are a huge support to family farms. Not so sure where the "left wing" comment comes from. As amazing as it may seem, there are a huge number of people that drink, and believe in legalizing raw milk.
And yes, they are an annoying voice to the huge Ag/dairy cartel in this country.......good!


herbgirl - i didn't mean that comment to be disparaging: i am a member of weston price!. i support and appreciate what they do DAILY! i simply was referring to the david and goliath aspect of their mission. I do think it is left wing to try to keep big business out of my food supply. whether that's libertarian, independent, or some sort of moderate republican i don't know. i know it's against the machine..

[Dilly Bean]

Hi I am a few days in to my first ever batch of dilly beans and I have a problem: the jar's lid has bent from pressure and liquid was pooling at the bottom of the glass jar. I opened the top and a lot of pressure was released and I could see bubbles coming up through the brine. I made the batch about 48 hours ago. Am I in trouble? I have re-closed the jar, it looks like some liquid is still coming out. I feel like I should put them in the fridge but that's not supposed to happen for another 12 days! They smell great and I am very excited about getting into lacto-fermentation so I am going to be bummed if I have to throw these away. Any ideas? Thanks!

[Emerald]

Hi I am a few days in to my first ever batch of dilly beans and I have a problem: the jar's lid has bent from pressure and liquid was pooling at the bottom of the glass jar. I opened the top and a lot of pressure was released and I could see bubbles coming up through the brine. I made the batch about 48 hours ago. Am I in trouble? I have re-closed the jar, it looks like some liquid is still coming out. I feel like I should put them in the fridge but that's not supposed to happen for another 12 days! They smell great and I am very excited about getting into lacto-fermentation so I am going to be bummed if I have to throw these away. Any ideas? Thanks!

Are you fermenting in a canning jar? I would replace the flat lid with a paper towel held in place with a rubber band-- I would never put anything that I am fermenting in a tightly closed container due to the fact that the pressure could make the glass explode.
Do you mind if I ask what recipe your using?

[Dilly Bean]

Hi thanks for your reply. I think I put too much water in the jar and the natural expansion of the veggies pushed the water up through the lid. I thought it was strange to put the fermentation in an air-tight container but that is definitely what the recipe called for. It was also very specific on leaving some wiggle room at the top of the jar and I think I may have put too many beans and garlic cloves in and not left enough space between the top of the water and the top of the jar. I used a 1-quart ball jar with a regular 2-piece lid. I ended up pouring out some of the liquid twice and because I had opened it up I put the jar in the fridge not long after. Probably about 3-4 days into the fermentation as opposed to 14 which is what the recipe suggests. All that being said, the beans taste great! And I haven't keeled over yet, which is always a good sign. Also I had read somewhere that you can pretty much tell immediately if the fermentation has gone badly as the smell is overwhelmingly unappetizing. No problem with that here. I found the recipe online, posted by the guy who makes the Dilly Beans that I was buying at my local co-op (Greenstar in Ithaca, NY). You can find it here:

[ok it wouldn't let me post the website, so Google "Lacto-fermented dilly beans Seth Travins, Hawthorne Valley Farm, Valley Table Issue 36"]

Anyway, I am looking forward to doing this frequently so any tips or advice would be appreciated, as well as suggestions for other items to ferment! Thanks!

[littlecrow]

Being a western girl raised on grocery store food, and luckily grass fed cows on the family farm, I am new to lacto-fermentation and a generation removed even from canning. My mother is terrified of most home canned food although she was raised on a farm and had raw milk as a child.

After reading Full Moon Feast I have lost my interest in learning to can, and now I want to lacto-ferment! I need to conquer the fears of food poisoning though. I don't want to poison my 3 year old or my self. How safe is it really? I need to be answered by someone who really knows!

Can botulism grow in lacto-fermented foods? Is a nasty smell really the only thing to signal spoilage. Is it really safe to eat food that has to have the mold removed from the top? What are the dangers if any?

[TastyofHasty]

Just have been googling away and came across this, which is about Tyramine, which affects the adrenaline system, and is produced by fermenting foods:

Tyramine is generally produced by decarboxylation of the amino acid tyrosine during fermentation of food products. All protein-rich foods which have been matured will contain more tyramine depending on the temperature and how long they have been stored.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norepinephrine#Natural_sources
Protein from such sources as meat, nuts and egg whites are broken down by the digestive system into amino acids such as l-tyrosine, a precursor to dopamine, which is in itself a precursor of norepinephrine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norepinephrine

As a stress hormone, norepinephrine affects parts of the brain where attention and responding actions are controlled. Along with epinephrine, norepinephrine also underlies the fight-or-flight response, directly increasing heart rate, triggering the release of glucose from energy stores, and increasing blood flow to skeletal muscle.

However, when norepinephrine acts as a drug it will increase blood pressure by its prominent increasing effects on the vascular tone from α-adrenergic receptor activation. The resulting increase in vascular resistance triggers a compensatory reflex that overcomes its direct stimulatory effects on the heart, called the baroreceptor reflex, which results in a drop in heart rate called reflex bradycardia.

Something to think about ... if you consume large quantities of fermented foods, and find yourself getting MOODY and maybe "ready to jump out of your skin," that kind of thing ... also related to heart rate ... and blood pressure. Tyramine is in CHEESES, too, and "old meat," which has had a chance to "cure" and ... FERMENT.

You know, the more I read this kind of stuff, I wonder whether there might be a FOOD-related cause for "unrest" in the Middle East ...

[manonash]

Can botulism grow in lacto-fermented foods? Is a nasty smell really the only thing to signal spoilage. Is it really safe to eat food that has to have the mold removed from the top? What are the dangers if any?
I've wondered this too. I would love to try fermenting, but this is a concern for me. Anybody know much about this?

Thanks!

[Cheffie]

Being a western girl raised on grocery store food, and luckily grass fed cows on the family farm, I am new to lacto-fermentation and a generation removed even from canning. My mother is terrified of most home canned food although she was raised on a farm and had raw milk as a child.

After reading Full Moon Feast I have lost my interest in learning to can, and now I want to lacto-ferment! I need to conquer the fears of food poisoning though. I don't want to poison my 3 year old or my self. How safe is it really? I need to be answered by someone who really knows!

Can botulism grow in lacto-fermented foods? Is a nasty smell really the only thing to signal spoilage. Is it really safe to eat food that has to have the mold removed from the top? What are the dangers if any?

No it cannot. The environment is the antithesis to what those those nasty little botulism spores need. Botulism needs an anaerobic environment (ie no oxygen). Fermenting is a wonderful, wild, active, very oxygenated environment.

I am ServSafe certified and have been for many years and required by my job to re-take the exam every 2 years.

[RozieDozie]

Botulism can't grow in properly processed lacto-fermented foods. Botulism is tasteless and has no odor, that's why it is so dangerous. Be sure to not skip any steps or take any shortcuts in the process and you'll be fine. Make sure, too, that you use the right ratios of ingredients.

[herbfever]

Hi Roy & Ana,

What a great thread. Your veggies look delicious. Thank you for the link for the jars. They are just gorgeous. Sandor's book really got me excited about fermenting.

Thanks again from another non-dairy fermenter;)

[roygee]

I have been away from this thread for a while and I realize I have a lot of catching up to do:

The likelihood of botulism in lacto food is pretty much inexistant as the fermentation process creates an acidic environment which is not conducive to botulism. We have been eating regularly fermented food for close to 10 years and we are still alive. Some of the preserved vegetables are over 2 years old and have kept well in the root cellar.

TofH, in my opinion modern science tends to narrow down the effect of foods to one specific element. I think that most of the chemicals in food act in tandem. As far as the Middle East crisis there must be more to it than an overdose on sauerkraut.

herbfever, thank you for your comments. If you need more information send Ana an email, she is the real specialist on lacto fermentation.

Roy

[manonash]

Thanks so much for the information! So what inhibits the bot growth before the pH drops enough to prevent it? I've heard it's the salt, but wasn't sure and couldn't find information on how much, etc. Can you add acidic things to keep the pH low until then, too? Will acid added previous to fermentation prevent it from doing what it's supposed to? One other question: how long does it take botulism to start doing it's thing if the conditions are right vs how long does it take for the lactic acid producing bacteria to start doing theirs? I'm very interested in this! I can't tolerate yogurt very well and would love to have another way to get probiotics in my diet.

Thanks again! You are all so very helpful. Seems there a LOT of people who ferment and the only ones I've heard of getting sick are home canners who didn't properly can the food, and fish fermenters using ziplock bags under the sink. Someone should come up with a test strip that you just dip and it works like a litmus test to test for botulinum toxin.

Shonda

[ratdog]

I bought this crock last summer for making sauerkraut. It works great. Guess I should lacto-ferment some veggies in it.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j265/emmettken/IMGP1544.jpg

[roygee]

Even though it is called Lacto fermentation, there are many bacteria involved in the process. First the Coliform get started and produce acid, then Leuconostoc take over and the pH continues to drop. Eventually Lactobacillus succeeds and finishes the fermentation. The salt prevents the bad guys from growing until the above bacteria proliferate. I did have concerns about the acidity in the beginning of the fermentation, and I added one tablespoon of vinegar per gallon, but then I realized that at the start the vegetables and brine have so much oxygen in them that botulism cannot prosper. I do not add vinegar anymore.

ratdog, this is a very beautiful crock. I did consider it but it was too much money for my budget. Now, I use 2 liter bottles that have a gasket and a bailing wire. Once opened, they go in the refrigerator. This allows me to vary my menu in opening a succession of jars with different vegetables. I confess that 2 gallons of sauerkraut would last me the whole Winter.

[alina]

I recently made sauerkraut for the first time after watching someone on youtube make it in her crockpot. I tried it, and the first batch I pulled too soon, because I was afraid it would rot, especially since she was in Alaska, in 50-something-degree weather, and we are in Honolulu, in 80-and 90-something-degree weather!

But I made it again and let it sit for 7 days, and it was great. I have another batch going now and forgot when I started it. I think it's been about 7 days now, and the woman said to leave it for ten days.

How do you know if something is too far gone? Is it rotten, does it smell bad?

I've ordered that Wild Fermentation book, but in the meantime, I don't want to waste this batch of sauerkraut, either...

I think I will be doing a lot more of this in the future, as it is easy to do and while I so far do not LOVE the taste, it IS growing on me. Besides, knowing it is full of probiotics and good bacteria, I think it is important to eat regularly. So I will try to make my own. I ate up most of that last batch of sauerkraut pretty quickly, too. And my father, whose ancestry is Finnish, grew up with that taste, so he'll be happy to try more.

[roygee]

alina, I have little experience with sauerkraut behavior in warm weather. I expect the fermentation will keep on going and the result would be a soft mushy cabbage. Can you put it in small jars and store it in the refrigerator? Once cool, the fermentation will slow down considerably and the kraut will survive for weeks.

Otherwise, I recommend you make very small batches and eat them quickly.

[ratdog]

I started making kraut last summer.I have made 3 batches and they turned out great. After I put it in the crock I take it to the basement where it ferments for around 6 weeks. My basement is quite cool even in the summer.When I make kraut I can or freeze it, both ways work well for me.

[herbfever]

Hi alina,

When I think the ferment is close to ready I taste it. In really warm weather things go much faster than cool weather. Each ferment is really it's own. Sandor's book is so helpful. Enjoy it.

:)

[herb girl]

ratdog, that's an awesome crock! It's on my "to buy" list....someday.
Right now we make our kraut in big 5 gallon food safe plastic buckets with special
gaskets on top.

This is a new one for me: this year my kraut got so "tangy" it was almost too much for the tongue.
That happen to anyone else? Not rotten, but had BITE to it.

I'm making awesome batches of Kombucha right now. Using a mixture of black tea and rooibus. It is the best I've ever made.

My kefir seems to be lagging a little and then getting super tangy. Not sure whats going on.

Making sourdough bread with Kamut flour also, much easier to digest for us (I don't eat modern wheat hybrids).

[chilesprout]

I'm so excited. Years ago I helped my landlord make an enormous old crock of saurkraut full of seeds and hot chiles. It was divine. I tried making it on my own a couple times after I moved, but I could never get it right. But I after reading this thread I bought Katz's book and have my first batch of kraut and another of onions, carrots, chiles and garlic. My husband wants to make beers and hard ciders.

I am especially encouraged by the fact that the author is a long time AIDS survivor and attributes his health, despite being immunocompromised, to supplementing his conventional drug treatment with fermented food. This made my brain's little voice of germophobia finally simmer down. It has been a loud voice lately. My littlest was born with an under-developed thymus gland. (The thymus basically teaches immune cells what to do) I am always feeding her probiotics. I had no idea fermented veggies were good like yogurt for this!!

[Mandichka]

Does cabbage turn mushy if left too long to ferment in original container? How do I know when the fermentation process is complete? I've been reading online and there seems to be vast differences in the length of time required to make kraut.

[alina]

yes, cabbage will turn mushy. Temperature is a big factor in fermentation. In warmer weather (higher than about 75 degrees), the ferment goes faster. So I had mine about 10-12 days before it started going mushy. At that point I moved it to the refrigerator, where it continues to age, but a lot more slowly.

As far as when is it done? There are no rules--you keep tasting it until it is as sour as you like it. If your weather is cool enough, you can leave it out. In Korea, they bury large crocks in the dirt to maintain cool temperatures and slowly ferment kimchi over the winter.

Also, more salt equals slower fermentation. So that's why the varying information. Every batch you do, you learn a little more and get better at it, like most things in life. Keep tasting it every day or couple of days, and move it to the fridge if it starts to get mushy.

[melodiousb]

I am new to this forum and made my first batch of lacto-fermemented veggies today. I have a few matters of concern for this first batch:

-I used well water for the brine (is this okay?)
-I lost a tiny chunk of my wooden spoon in the mixture (lol...really though, is this okay?)
-I really blended up my veggies and they are pretty juicy (do they need to be cut bigger?)
-I didn't put the lid on all the way(am I supposed to?)

Thank you in advance for answers for my questions!

[roygee]

My humble opinion:
- Well water is better than tap - no chlorine.
- Piece of wood in the vegetables is OK, try not to eat it though it may perforate your intestines.
- Too late for now for the veggie size, but chunky is better. By the time they ferment they will be mushy.
- Depending on the kind of jar you use the lid may or may not net to be closed all the way. Just make sure that the vegetables are covered at all times by the brine. It may be more difficult to achieve with finely shredded vegetables. I use jars with seals that let the air escape, regular jars tightly closed may explode.

Roy
By the way, welcome aboard!! This is a fun forum.

[Mt.Imagine]

This thread is great; I like the idea of just using glass jars, as the crock process had always seemed daunting. I used to eat this amazing raw kimchee from rainbow coop in San Fransisco, and I'd love to try and recreate it. I've just ordered the 'wild fermentation' book from the library, too.

I hope I can make kimchee and other lacto-fermented vegetables from my garden reliably myself - I am in a much cooler part of Hawaii than Alina, so it should be ok.

[roygee]

Another welcome to Mt.Imagine. I found a very good recipe and processing method for kimchee in Madhur Jaffreys' "World of the East Vegetarian Cooking". Do keep in mind that the Korean recipes usually include fish sauce which would go against you vegan beliefs. I do not use crocks as they are expensive, and a bit too large for me. I prefer to store my fermented foods in smaller jars because once they are open they need to be refrigerated.

[Mt.Imagine]

Thanks, I've also ordered Madhur's book from the library (ordered because it is not at my local branch,) and will see if their process can give me any insight. I've noticed the fish sauce and am sure I can ignore it - I imagine I could even grind up some sesame or sunflower seeds and use them instead. I found one of the jars you use (which is certainly more practical than crocks, yes), and I picked up some pure Himalayan salt today, so I should have my first experiment soon!

[Emerald]

I figured that if this gets put up to the front of the line- it might be easier to move to the new forum on food preservation. Plus folks are just starting to get some crops in and it is almost that time to start fermenting! :D

[silverseeds]

If you want to try the best of the fermented things look into the kombucha mushroom. I could send one to someone IF they TRULY wanted it. You make tea put in the mushroom it ferments, a week later you have aowerhouse of nutrition and two mushrooms instead of one.....

[mjc]

http://idigmygarden.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17829&highlight=kombucha (discusses other uses, especially plant related)

http://idigmygarden.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17840&highlight=kombucha

And a few others...just pug it into the search...

[older than dirt]

Great thread . Ive made Kimchi & had been running off bad info. The info I was useing said it was the hot peper that preserved it so to be safe I made it way to hot & was nodoubt running a real risk becouse of using very little salt LOL funny like a hand granade with no pin.

[silverseeds]

http://idigmygarden.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17829&highlight=kombucha (discusses other uses, especially plant related)

http://idigmygarden.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17840&highlight=kombucha

And a few others...just pug it into the search...

I have a couple kombucha mushrooms I could send someone one, but only IF you researched it and KNOW you want it. Im kinda lazy when I can be, so I only want to bother for people who actually want it, not just curious about it. so if you researched it a little and will give it a real try, I have it....

[Orgarden]

Thanks so much Roygee (& wife) for answering our questions! I do have one of my own. How do you handle the food when you're ready to move or eat them? I'd read that the brine level acts like a barrier to keep the nasties out of the food but doesn't that mean that they sit at the surface of the brine? Is there a special way of taking the food out of the brine?

I know this sounds silly but when I tried making sauerkraut for the first time I was absolutely afraid to eat it for fear of botulism as a previous poster had mentioned. The kefir sauerkraut I felt a little better about and I did eat a small piece from both, then waited for a week and a half to see if they were okay. But because the kraut touched the surface of the brine while I tried to take it out of the jar I grew more afraid of what sat in the fridge.

[noob]

OOhhh.. I'm VERY interested in the kombucha but that'll have to be my fall/winter endeavor. I still have far too much prep to do for next year's garden!
I'm curious, how long does the mushroom live for?

[noob]

OOhhh.. I'm VERY interested in the kombucha but that'll have to be my fall/winter endeavor. I still have far too much prep to do for next year's garden!
I'm curious, how long does the mushroom live for?

[silverseeds]

OOhhh.. I'm VERY interested in the kombucha but that'll have to be my fall/winter endeavor. I still have far too much prep to do for next year's garden!
I'm curious, how long does the mushroom live for?

Im not sure each time you make it you ferment it for week, then you have 2 mushrooms in the first ones place. You could then make 2 batches at a time, Im not sure how long you can use the same mushroom. But doesnt matter to much because youll always have new ones, and if you dont want to make it for awhile you can store the mushromm in the refridgerator.

[ovenbird]

It would be great to be able to get some perforated disc shaped glass weights to lay on top of the veggies to keep them submerged. Anyone know of a source for such a thing?

[Emerald]

It would be great to be able to get some perforated disc shaped glass weights to lay on top of the veggies to keep them submerged. Anyone know of a source for such a thing?

You used to be able to fine these round glass disks with holes in them for holding flower stems nice in a vase- I have a couple around here somewhere that were given to me by a very nice lady who was a good customer at the greenhouse, she said that they were quite old- but I'll bet if you find one and check it for lead (just in case) that it would be just right for holding the veggies under the brine.
__If you know anyone that is a wood worker you could also have someone make you some wooden disks with tiny holes too, they might not sit under the brine but they would hold all the veggies under the brine. The older folks would use a big wooden disk with no holes in the sauerkraut buckets- you would still have to skim the surface of any brine that came up but that is not hard to do.

__ Now I have only one left of the LF cauliflower and veggies from last fall and it was in a canning jar with a lid and ring that I just used my vacuum pump to suck the air out of (foodsaver has the adapter for wide mouth and small mouth lids) and it was fine. But as always that first bite of any of the LF foods when you first start making them is hard, But I'm still here!:D My mom remembers that they would always skim the kraut barrel and would sometimes have to remove a bit on top that might have gotten too much air. and occasionally they would have to make a bit of salt brine and add to the barrel to keep the brine levels up. LF foods are living and do take a bit of care, But I love looking at all the nice big jars of Roygee and his wife AnaM, and they both were very good to put up this thread and answer any questions that we had.

[roygee]

I have been away for a long time and did not have the time to look up this thread.

As far as keeping the veggies under the brine AnaM (the genius in the family) finally figured out an easy way to do it. She just uses wooden coffee stirrers cut in half and wedged against the shoulder of the jar. She uses 4 or 5 half stirrers, and the result looks like a star. If picture needed, please let me know.

[lreef]

I've read through this entire thread and I'm not seeing my question but I might have brain overload too :). If it has been answered already sorrry!! Lots of great stuff on here I've learned a ton.

I saw on another website that when your pickles are done with the fermenting process you can water bath can them for 15 minutes. This is a new thing for me so those of you that have done this before is this how you do it?? It seems like that would kill the good stuff. Our fridge normally stays packed so I really don't want to store them in there if I can avoid it. I had one of the pickles today this is day 5 and they are just now getting sour so I'm pretty excited about it.

[roygee]

Ireef, I know of people who can after lacto-fermenting, and I fail to understand why they bother to go through the fermentation process if they are going to kill all the beneficial stuff afterward. My neighbor makes sauerkraut in a crock, then transfers into quart jars and hot water can that; I have not been able to talk her out of it.

Somewhere in the beginning of this thread I mentioned that I use a jar with a rubber gasket and metal bale closing and ferment directly into the jar. When the process is complete after a few days I take it down to the root cellar where it stays for several month. Temperature in the cellar is as high as 62 in the Summer and about 34 in the Winter. Some of the food I have is from 2007 and it is still good. Once a jar is opened it has to be refrigerated.

[lreef]

I did see that roygee I guess it didn't click since they were canning jars I thought I had missed a process in there :).

The temperature issue is my problem. Arkansas in the summer is HOT!! Until probably mid September there is not a place in my house that will be under 74, which is what the AC is set on. I think that is a little too warm still for the crock. I'll keep this first batch in the fridge and wait until fall to do everything else.

Thank you for your help roygee I felt like I was back in college yesterday reading this thread :)!! I think I'm going to find a good book and read up on this there is so much to learn.

[Emerald]

I did see that roygee I guess it didn't click since they were canning jars I thought I had missed a process in there :).

The temperature issue is my problem. Arkansas in the summer is HOT!! Until probably mid September there is not a place in my house that will be under 74, which is what the AC is set on. I think that is a little too warm still for the crock. I'll keep this first batch in the fridge and wait until fall to do everything else.

Thank you for your help roygee I felt like I was back in college yesterday reading this thread :)!! I think I'm going to find a good book and read up on this there is so much to learn.

Go to the library and check out "Wild Fermentation" by Sandor Katz it is a great book on fermenting all kinds of stuff. One of these days I will be brave and try to find some miso and then make some of my own.

[roygee]

Emerald, making miso is not difficult, it just takes a long time to age (six month to 3 years). You can buy the koji starter for $3.00 from http://www.gemcultures.com/soy_cultures.htm and it will include instructions. For more information ask AnaM she has been making barley and wheat miso for years.

[lreef]

Thanks Emerald I'll see if the hubby can fetch it for me on his way home from work today. Can't get out in the garden and play with all this rain so I'll catch up on my reading instead :).

[roygee]

Ireef, we plant late so that we have produce available late September onward. This year promises to be a disaster as it rained constantly for the past 40 days, only the weeds and the slugs are thriving. It has been a cold Summer so far, and we would need to put the stove on to reach 74 inside the house.

Another book that you can probably get at the library is the Joy of Pickling by Linda Ziedrich. It is mostly for canned pickles, but it has quite a few lacto recipes as well.

[older than dirt]

I thank you for this thread. I bought the wild fermentation book & made the best kimchee ive ever made & its keeping much better as well. Its amazing how a little basic info can make things work soooo much better :D

[kellygirrl]

Wasn't sure where to post this. I finally started my first ferments. I fermented crab apples last week with honey, salt and whey. I ate them fast, trying to keep ahead of the vinegar-bacteria.:eek: Started sauerkraut yesterday, just a couple mason jars for a test run. And finally today, this recipe for ketchup. I wanted to use raw tomatoes (so many cherry toms, God love 'em), but the sages of the internet say raw ketchup is yucky. So I simmered them for 30 minutes, cooled, and blender-wanded with garlic, cinnamon, mustard, allspice, chopped cayenne, sucanat, cider vinegar, salt, and whey, shut the jars tight and put them in the cupboard next to yesterdays sauerkraut.:) I used this recipe as a starting point: http://www.wholetraditions.com/recipes/75-fermented-ketchup The flavor was delicious! (Except I used too much sucanat.) Supposedly it thickens as it ferments.

Still not clear when some say it's preferable to use whey. I know Ana and Roy are not big on it. I had some raw goat whey, tho, so I used it except for the kraut.

Don't know why it took me so long to try fermenting.

I want the jars described in the beginning of this thread, to store long term. Very exciting.

[AnaM]

Kellygirrl:

The reason I do not use whey, besides trying to figure out where to get it -- well water is far more accessible -- is that the cultures that we get our lacto-fermentation traditions from for the most part do not use whey. Plus, whey goes bad very quickly. You have to use it fresh, or forget it.

But the real reason, besides accessibility is that the oriental cultures that ferment so many of their foods -- think kimchi for instance -- do not have any dairy in their diets. Think Korean, Japanese, even Chinese. The Chinese ferment their eggs. Usually duck eggs. I have had the process described to me, and they use brine, with water and lots of salt, not whey.

In Europe, where they have a strong dairy tradition, think cheese, yogurt, as only two examples, they do not ferment their olives in whey for example. As far as I know, neither do they ferment their sauerkraut in whey. My guess is they just use whey in the fermentation of dairy products, like cheese, yogurt viili, kefir and mjolk for example. So, I am very suspicious about the whole push to ferment everything in whey.

You mentioned about the jars pictured at the beginning of this thread. I can now tell you that we are eating stuff we put up over 2 years ago, stored in the root cellar. It is crisp and crunchy and wonderfully flavorful. Considering how difficult a gardening year this one is proving to be, I am glad I overdid it in 2007 in putting food by, since we will need it this winter. It also means that I will have to put up less as well.

And I am glad for those bottles. No mold or white bacteria to clean. A completely maintenance-free process.

In short, you seem to have access to fresh whey, go for it. I do not, and I prefer to follow the original recipes and stick to unchlorinated well water which I have easy access to.

BTW, welcome to the fermentation process

[kellygirrl]

Thank you for responding Ana! I also feel an instinctive preference for traditional methods, and love the idea that salt and vegetables, such simple ingredients, work together to lacto-ferment food. Because I'm new, I'll try to increase my chances for success, if the recipe calls for it, and whey is supposed ensure proper fermentation. I need to get away from the puter and read Wild Fermentation, I think. Whey, by the way, is usually only used in small amounts, from what I read, not instead of water. But the fact that it could increase spoilage or decrease storage time, seems plausible.

My kraut is browning an inch or so on top, prolly should have weighed it down in the jar. Maybe should have used more salt. Doesn't taste promising, as of day 3, but I will keep going with it.

Do you burp your jars at any point?

I'm so excited about long term storage without electricity or cooking, and increased nutrition. This just seems like the greatest thing since sliced bread. (Which is often white flour and not so great.;))

[AnaM]

Hi again Kellygirrl,

I am not sure what you mean by "burping" the jars. The jars I use, once they are closed, stay closed until such time as we eat the contents. This is VERY IMPORTANT.

There are two things, I believe, that keep the food so fresh in my jars. One is the gas seal that is created as a byproduct of the fermentation. The other is the pressure that builds up inside the jar, also as a byproduct of the fermentation. Often, when I first open a jar (only when we are going to eat the contents) there is a rush of little bubbles that comes to the surface. Think of champagne. Both of these things, in my opinion, keep the food fresh. I had a student of mine come to our house a few days ago. She uses jars like mine, rubber gasket, metal bail (bale?) and she said that she had mold growing inside. Now, that is a red flag; it does not happen if you keep the jar closed. She then admitted that she opened the jar "just to smell it" and then closed it and put it back on the shelf in the root cellar. Bad. Very bad. By opening the jar, she released the gas seal, and the pressure too, and allowed new bacteria into the jar. Since the fermentation was over, there was nothing to prevent the introduced bacteria from propagating, and it did.

So, another lesson, when you are using my jars, leave them closed until ready to eat. Lots of things are still going on with the veggies long after the fermentation is complete. The flavor changes, matures, improves, etc. Once the jar is opened, it goes into the fridge.

If you are not using my jars, then you must be very vigilant about the brine level. Always at least 2 inches above the veggies. Make sure they are weighed down to stay under water. You can remove veggies from time to time, and just make sure they are under brine at all times. And, of course keep the top covered with something, a heavy fabric, and maybe supplemented with metal screening, depending on where you live and how many critters you share your living quarters with, so that nothing gets into your food.

Re browning sauerkraut. That is a new one for me. I would be concerned.

An you are right, fermentation is the greatest thing, even greater than sliced bread.

[kellygirrl]

Very informative, thank you!

I read about jars exploding from build up, therefore one is advised to release pressure from the jar as it begins to ferment. I wonder how it is your jars don't explode? But at least I know they don't, that's what matters most! My neighbor from whom I have been buying fermented foods, showed me a burping lid, tho I'm not sure how often she uses it, as I see lots of big crocks around. All her stuff gets stored in the fridge. I promised to find out for her how we can store it without refrigeration, and I understand that it is about fermenting in the right jars, and not opening them.

She sells her stuff in mason jars with $1 deposit on the bottle; guess she'd have to get a pretty big deposit to sell in the good jars...May need to think about that.

Thanks again Ana, for sharing your knowledge and experience!

[roygee]

Kellygirrl, the jars we use have a rubber gasket that allows the air to escape once pressure builds up in the jar, thereby eliminating the risk of explosion. Some pressure still remains in the jar and we believe that it is CO2 from the fermentation. I am attaching a picture downloaded from the net that shows the gasketed jars we use. They are more than one dollar but they last a long time, and they are definitely cheaper than a crock. They come in different sizes and we have a few of each. Depending on the volume of the harvest, and what we are putting by we use larger or smaller jars.

[kellygirrl]

Duh, I have 5 of those jars already, how exciting. How cool that the rubber gasket allows the escape of pressure to keep the jars from exploding, but not enough to prevent a good seal and allow spoilage. I'm concerned the rubber may be too old and brittle on a couple of the jars, but I can discuss parts replacement when I'm ready to order more.

I hope Wild Fermentation which I have had for a few years:o will give me more direction (when I read it:o), but this has been great. I so appreciate your (plural) knowledge and encouragement.

I wish more people were posting their recipes and experiences here on lacto-fermenting.

Oh, something I'm curious to understand better, if you have any insight. What happens as a ferment goes from lacto, to alcohol or vinegar, and is each stage useful to our health, in all cases, whatever we are fermenting? Are there health benefits to alcohol, specifically the fermentation itself?

Thanks again.

[roygee]

I was able to find gaskets at a local kitchen supplies store in Belfast, Maine pop 8,000 - I suspect you should easily find them in your area or in Chicago. The cost here is $0.50 per and they last many years.

I am not a biologist, so take my answer with a grain of salt (no pun intended). To my knowledge there is no alcohol at the end of the lacto process. There is very little sugar in vegetables, and what there is ends up as acid. The chemical reaction goes from sugar to alcohol to acid. The health benefits come from the by-products generated by the fermentation, that is vitamins and amino-acids - besides the vegetables are partially digested and therefore easier for the intestines to absorb.

Ana and I are always trying new recipes and combinations of ingredients and after so many years still feel like beginners.

Roy

[kellygirrl]

I was able to find gaskets at a local kitchen supplies store in Belfast, Maine pop 8,000 - I suspect you should easily find them in your area or in Chicago. The cost here is $0.50 per and they last many years.


Good to know.


There is very little sugar in vegetables, and what there is ends up as acid.


Ah, of course. That's why fruit is more susceptible to becoming alcohol. My one experiment with crab apples seemed to be turning alcoholic and vinegary fast, and my neighbor's fabulous fermented peaches seemed suspiciously warming to my insides.:cool:

The health benefits come from the by-products generated by the fermentation, that is vitamins and amino-acids - besides the vegetables are partially digested and therefore easier for the intestines to absorb.

And of course, the flora, which heals gut disbiosis. My daughter is on a program that requires kraut to get her digestion working again.

If a culture starts to turn to alcohol or vinegar, you still use it then?

Something I would like to try this fall is fermented grape juice. My grapes have seeds. I like to juice them in my twin gear juicer that crushes the seed, giving a distinct grape-seedy taste to the juice. I would love to preserve that juice without heat. Any thoughts on that?

I hope you don't mind me asking all these questions. I don't want to monopolize you, it's just such a treat to talk to someone with your experience, even if you feel ever the beginner!

[lovely09]

My aunt also do lacto-fermentation of vegetables.I learned it from her and when i was in high school.One of my subject was about home economics and part of it about cooking,and more