Vegetarianism - your thoughts?

[johno]

There are people who swear by vegetarianism whether for scientific, religious, or ethical reasons. And there are those who believe meat is required in your diet for a variety of reasons. I just wondered where everybody stands on this issue? :confused:

[Lavandula Girl]

Johno - my husband laughed when I read him this post, and told me I should tell you a silly thing. When he and I met, I was a vegetarian. He thought it was because I was a soccer player, and tried really hard, even though he's a French trained chef, to cook what he thought were meals that wouldn't offend my veggie sensibilities. Imagine his surprise when my soccer team buddies informed him that I was a vegetarian because meat was too expensive, and was cutting in to my beer money! Ha! We as a family are no longer vegetarian, but only eat meat about 3 times a week. We try to balance our diet variety, and include as much fresh as possible.

[johno]

That's funny, sounds like when my father paid me a visit once when I was in college. He walked in and opened my refrigerator: it contained only a half of a gallon can of potatoes and a half of a pint bottle of tequila...

[zebraman]

Hey Guys;I hunt,Deer and Elk mostly.Got Black Bear meat sent from Eagle Nest NM last year.Which I guess means I 'm not completely vegetarian.-

[johno]

A couple of my friends from NW Arkansas came over here to visit (once upon a time...) One of them WAS a strict vegetarian, but we met at my parents' house and my dad happened to be slow cooking a shoulder roast outside - it smelled so good that she just couldn't resist and now she isn't a vegetarian anymore...

[HillsideDigger]

I think it is well established that a vegetarian diet can be fully adequate and healthful, it takes a lot of thought and planning but would become routine.

I've never done it but am progressing toward fewer and fewer animal products.

Really, its just like organic farming, we may all (at least those still surviving) find the switch to organic and vegetarian the only available option in a few years.

One thing is certain, if a real crisis occurs (such as the predicted repercussions from the depletion of oil and gas in another decade or 2) most all game animals and livestock will quickly be used up and nearly extincted.

[mrtomatoexpres]

zebraman you got me hungry deer meat my freind moved away no more deer meat i like to cook it with homemade wine or regular wine with onions and i must have garlic to :)

[johno]

HillsideDigger, I think you have your thumb on the pulse of this issue. While I believe we are intended to eat meat on an occasional basis, paying close attention to your vegetarian diet can certainly suffice. Cataclysm or not, there just isn't a sustainable supply to feed everyone on the planet today a steady diet of meat, let alone a rising human population in the future.

That being said, I am sooo glad I don't live in an overpopulated part of the world. [Overpopulation is the real problem, not the meat supply...] I believe that lean, wild game is an important source of nutriment for our species, and I'm fortunate enough to live where it is found in abundance. I'd send some to mrtomatoexpres if it were legal, but I'm pretty sure it isn't - sending it across state lines...

[flowerpower]

I have always been a a picky eater. I really don't eat alot of meat anyway. Sometimes beef but usually chicken or turkey. There is no way I could ever be vegetarian. I couldn't give up fried chicken cutlets or Thanksgiving dinner.

mrtomato, I will see what I can do about getting you venison this yr. You won't even have to leave bklyn. Just go to 65th st and 4th ave. :)

[HillsideDigger]

For those that have never thought about it,

and wondering what plant crops they could grow to provide all the fatty and amino acids (proteins)

peanuts or soybeans provide them all

corn and various beans and squashes in combination will do the same.

[Lavandula Girl]

Hillside Digger - I think your answer also touches on the issue that too many people don't eat locally . We have become so accustomed to having bananas, strawberries, mangoes and oranges whenever we go to the store, as well as a variety of feedlot meats. I remember my grandmother telling me a story about nursing school in the early 1920's, and how they recieved bananas for lunch one day. They were taught that these exotic fruits were to be eaten with a fork and knife, having carefully cut one side of the peel off. Imagine, just 85 years ago in Cincinnati, bananas were an exotic luxury! Granted, these aren't all fruits that are uncommon to everyone who posts here, but that's the point isn't it? The elk that the west coasters mention isn't a game tag hunters can get out here in VA, but the restaurants can have it flown in when the DC crowd decides they want it. The desire and ability to fly things and truck them all over the place on a whim is what brought us to the fast food world we live in now.

[leelanau_ferg]

I was veg for a couple years after reading a book called Dead Meat that I stumbled into at the library. Such horrific, graphic accounts of what goes on at slaughterhouses and animal factories. I still ate venison at the time though, because I knew the life it lived and the respect with which it was killed. I eat most meat again now-try to stick to local, organic, and/or happy animal meat as much as possible. I missed it. I am an omnivore for sure.

[Lavandula Girl]

leelanau - went through the same reaction after reading Upton Sinclair's The Jungle when I was 14! It's funny how we slide back into the omnivore lifestyle, though, isn't it?

[werecat]

I am most definately an omnivor. No questions about it at all! Meat is good... Standard joke is walk the animal though a warm room and bring me a knife. Totally a joke since I wouldnt know the first thing about killing and butchering meat to be honest, but got to have meat! But I also love fresh veggies too. :) My ultimate goal would be to have property (somewhere, still trying to get money together and figure out where...) to grow my own veggies on and have my own animals. The way most slaughter houses work I am not happy with, but for the moment if I want meat I don't have much choice. Eventually, Gods willing, that will change. I would also like to breed small game to release as well. pheasants, grouse, praire chickens and so on. My sister would really like to try hawking if she can find someone to teach her and although I would have to be in charge of the big animals or she would turn them into pets and not let me make them food, she could handle hawking and bringing small game to the table. :)

[johno]

My father was a butcher when he was twelve years old, so processing meat is a tradition amongst the 'boys' in my family. As a child I was taught gun safety and hunting pretty early. I got my first shotgun when I was ten or twelve years old. That was just life in the Ozarks... I used to hunt, kill, clean, skin and process animals then, but I never liked killing and I still can't stand the gut smell. Since there are more guys nowadays who hunt and kill than there are who know how to skin and cut, I'm happy enough to do the latter in exchange for meat. Now I just go in the woods, rarely with a gun, for the enjoyment of being one with nature.

That's not to say I don't eat domestic animals. But the quality isn't consistant and the prices are outrageous in the store most of the time, so I rarely eat beef anymore. Usually it's chicken or pork... Seafood is relatively cost effective compared to other meats now, so we eat lots of that, too. As soon as I'm back in working order, I'm going to finish the barn in the field next door and get a beefalo steer once a year to butcher.

You may be wondering by now if we eat anything except meat. Well, I'm no Ted Nugent. In fact, back in my hippy dippy days, One of my friends finally convinced me to try being vegetarian for a year. And I did. And I got down to my ideal weight and never got ill even one time that year. But it just didn't seem right somehow... My teenage daughters are athletes, and Ive been battling to get them to eat more vegetables for as long as I can remember. They eat better that most of their peers, but nowhere near what I consider enough vegetables, and they are winners at their sport (swimming.) So obviously a vegetarian diet isn't required to be healthy.

I read the book about the paleolithic diet a couple of years ago and tried that for a couple of months. That was amazing - I felt great and was all around healthier - but the restrictions were too much for me to abide by. Basically you get your carbs almost entirely from vegetables, but grains and starchy vegetables and legumes were off the table. I like my starchy vegetables (corn, taters, etc.) too much!

In a nutshell, I think a person ought to eat mostly the types of things you'd consider 'wild,' like nuts and berries, wild game, lots of leafy greens and root crops, and fruit to be healthy.

[Cliff Timmons]

If God didn't want us to eat animals, why did he make then full of meat? <grin>

No really, if someone dosn't want to eat meat, that's fine with me. In fact there are a lot of good reasons to cut back on meat consumption.

However, like anything in life, I don't want someone forcing their opinions onto me. And likewise, if I had company over that didn't eat meat, I wouldn't wave a porkchop under their noses either.

We are trying to get away from the mass produced beef, pork and poltury products and either eat our own or buy locally.

[Lavandula Girl]

[QUOTE=Cliff Timmons]If God didn't want us to eat animals, why did he make then full of meat? <grin>

I recently saw a bumper sticker that I need to get for my husband.... "PETA: People for the Eating of Tasty Animals" :D

[HillsideDigger]

With the addition of butter, cheese, eggs and fish/seafood I could happily get by with what I grow.

[April]

I could easily live the rest of my life without meat if it wasn't for barbequed chicken. Barbequed chicken makes a sinner out of me in a heartbeat.

[SunflowerMeg]

IMHO, vegetarian diets are meant for few people...i.e., few people(s) can truly tolerate such a diet. And I can't help but recall all the countless programs I have seen on the Discover Channel, the Science Channel, the NGC regarding our ancestors and how eating all that good meat protein made our brains grow bigger which is why we got smarter. So, does that mean if I stop eating meat protein, my brain and those of my decendents will get smaller??? :)

It doesn't mean we need to pig out on meat, ummm, no pun intended, but I have known so many vegetarians who end up going back to meat because they felt so poorly (and looked so poorly), and started experiencing health issues. I recall a guy coming into the organic store I worked in...he wouldn't even use horse manure in his compost pile and he wanted to make sure our bagged compost contained no animal byproducts, and he looked like death warmed over him...he REALLY needed some protein badly! The ol' nuts and beans weren't cutting it for him.

Man cannot live on soybeans. They will seriously alter hormones and studies are now starting to indicate the effects those nasty things are having on humans (fermented soybeans are okay). While everyone else in the health food stores are reading labels to make sure there is plenty of soy IN their product, I'm reading labels to make there's NO soy in my products. The soy industry will lose it's control over us and we will begin to realize that once again, we've been duped by great advertising schemes. Give it 10 years.

Of course, all that's just my humble opinion. I just stocked my freezer with grass-fed beef and lamb and free-range chickens! Not sure I can do bear. :) Yet. Would love some venison; maybe this fall. Thought about raising rabbits for rabbit stew, but don't think I could eat what I raised...would become too attached, but their poopies would go great in the compost. I think.

With all that said, nuts and most beans certainly have a place in our diet. Berries too! As a matter of fact, I believe they can be lifesavers under certain circumstances. It seems guys like or seems to need more protein than girls. Is that because they are the "hunters" and need that extra ump to go out on hunts, and we "gatherers" or girls, stay home and tend the fires and don't require as much stamina (not that taking care of fire and kids is a small chore)! Is it something built into our genes?

[johno]

Guys generally need more total calories - that is, more of everything - because they are generally bigger and burn more calories at rest. The same holds true for a large female...

You have breached the subject I was looking for but was afraid to bring up: the evolution of the human gut. I really don't want to annoy the creationists out there, because I think you have a right to your beliefs... That being said, scientific findings are not just beliefs, they demand reproducible findings before they are taken seriously.

Earlier I mentioned the paleolithic diet. This is basically a study of hunter/gatherer diets based on fossil records from before the time of agriculture. Peoples today who live in the same or very similar conditions are pretty healthy. Before the dawn of agriculture people (cavemen, you might say) lived about as long as Americans do today - into their seventies, roughly. With the advent of farming - again looking at the fossil record - people were much less likely to starve because there was much more food available. Their life expectancy was much lower because they were no longer eating the diet the human gut had evolved to digest. In recent times we have begun to eat a more balanced diet rich with a variety of foods, perhaps most importantly the salad, so the life expectancy has returned to a high level. But we are still plagued with a plethora of diseases that paleolithic man's skeltons suggest they did not suffer from.

An interesting aside: my wife suffers from Crohne's disease; many have suggested "the maker's diet" to her, but the group who follw this diet most closely, Hacidic Jews, have the highest occurance of Crohne's disease...

Now, I do know vegetarian's who are healthy, but it takes a very careful study of nutrition to accomplish this. Occasionally adding flesh to an other wise vegetarian diet eliminates the guesswork of getting all the amino acids that are required for cell production. Remember, you are what you eat, and you are made of meat!

[ipaintedmyhousewhite]

This is a really interesting thread. Recently, I've drastically changed my diet. I am one of those people who is a nervous wreck. I just wasn't digesting my food well, and also wanted to get off the pesticides, GMO's etc. In other words, eat more foods grown by myself or "organically" produced. So now, myfamily rarely has meat. We do a lot of beans, cheese, vegetables, fruit, nuts, whole grain cereals and crackers, yogurt, that sort of thing. Sometimes foods with soy or tofu in the main dish. I feel better, my kids act much more sane (most of the time). Not necessarily because of eating less meat I don't think, but maybe just burning lighter fuel and less processed, more healthful foods. But I think we may do meat once a week, on average, if that. I don't really keep track. I don't really think about or crave meat at all anymore, though. I used to all the time.

[JereGettle]

I am a vegan of about 12 years, and eat a lot of asian foods.

Zebraman, I do love Tofudebeest, and you be from the land of the "Fruits and Nuts" I am surprised you have not hunted these.

[zebraman]

Hey Jere;There is nothing Fun or Sporting about shooting something that is already dead.Also I don't hunt in LA.I usually fly up to Montanna with friends and go Bow hunting for Elk.I will be in Alaska this Winter but will be hunting wolves for fur.-

[johno]

Jere, do you prefer Thai, Korean, etc., or do you just like them all? Have a favorite asian dish?

I eat Mexican or Asian whenever I have a choice...

[Lavandula Girl]

Jere - another question.... are you vegan for the moral issue of eating other animals, or for a health issue, like you don't feel well when you eat animal products? (If it's not too personal!) My sis-in-law is vegan, but not so much for the broad moral aspect of not using animals as products, but because she had some health effects from eating certain things, and decided to eliminate everything. (She has been known to put cream in her coffee if she thinks no one's looking, but don't tell her we know!)

[JereGettle]

Zebraman, ya, but it sure is an easy target.

Johno, I prefer Thai, South East Asian, Napalese and Indian foods.
I love so many of their dishes and really miss Thailand! My favorite thai dish is Red Curry... but I just love Indian samosas, etc. etc.

Lavandula, good question, it is for many reasons, both health and moral, which to me kind of run into the same issue, as health is a moral choice for me. The main reasons is: modern meat/milk/egg production is cruel, full of hormones, chemicals and un-healthy condtions, also it takes many times the amount of labor, fuel, chemicals & water to produce a pound of meat that it does produce, and meat will store many times the pesticides that vegetables will.

So with that said I encorage a total boycot on mass produced animal products, and for those who still want them, I think you are much better off raising your own!

But on that note I have a hard time killing (or eating) my own...

so here I am a vegetable!



Jere

[Cliff Timmons]

Yeah, but think of big ole juicy pork ribs with BBQ sauce.
Mmmmmmmmmm <grin>

[zebraman]

Hey Jere; Isn't that a Leather Jacket your'e wearing?-

[boston]

I dont think there is anything wrong with being a vegetarian. I like meat and I eat meat. What I dont like like is all the PETA people and others like that and their terrorist tactics.
I also agree with Jerry about all the chemicals and hormone they fill my meat with. I do hunt but I would not be able to survive on what I get and I would grow my own if I could But dont really have the room, maybe a small chicken coop which I have seriously considered.

[HillsideDigger]

If vegetarians eat vegetables

what do humanitarians eat?

Seriously though, since first reading, back in 1977, 'Living the Good Life' by the Nearings, I have been convinced that vegan is the way to live and I guess I may get there yet.

[johno]

Okay, I know I will sound like a fence-straddler for writing this, but as I said earlier, it is obvious people CAN live healthy lives as vegetarians, I am just not so sure we were meant to, and it is tricky if you don't know what you are doing. I read this and thought the vegetarians out there might be interested. I recommend the book it came from, The Secret Life Of Plants by Peter Tompkins and Christopher Bird, to all readers.

Long ago, in a country far, far away...
A Brittish doctor, Robert McCarrison, was doing nutritional research in India and stumbled upon a people in the tail of Afghanistan who were remarkably healthy, vigorous and long lived (the Hunzas.) He studied the diets of other groups in the region for comparison. Then he experimented on rats by feeding them the same diets as the various peoples under observation. Not surprisingly, the rats suffered the same ills as the people whose diets they ate.
I quote, (pp224-5)
"When offered the food of the Hunzas, which was limited to grain, vegetables, and fruits, along with unpasteurized goat milk and the butter made from it, the rodents appeared to McCarrison the healthiest ever raised in his laboratory. They grew rapidly, were apparently never ill, mated with enthusiasm, and had healthy offspring. When they were killed and autopsied at twenty-seven months - the equivalent of fifty-five years in humans - nothing whatsoever was wrong with their organs. Most amazing to McCarrison was the fact that throughout their lifetimes they were gentle, affectionate, and playful.
Contrasted to these "Hunza rats" others contracted precisely the diseases of the people whose diets they were being fed and even seemed to adopt certain of their behavioral characteristics. Illnesses revealed at autopsy filled a whole page. All parts of their bodies, from womb and ovary to skin, hair and blood, and respiratory, urinary, digestive, nervous and cardiovascular systems, were afflicted. Moreover, many of them, snarling and vicious, had to be kept apart if they were not to kill each other."

Makes me think twice before deviating from such a diet. But the third time I think about eating the goats, too. :D

[Jodi]

I think this is an excellent discussion.

I am a vegetarian. Not vegan, yet; however I feel better when I am. Was raised on meat and potatoes. And fresh venision in the fall was not uncommon at the breakfast table. However, over time and studying how the body really functions within the individual systems in the body and the body as a whole I started thinking more about this. It made since to me for an over all total body's health and clarity of mind. And if you question this, I was at an animal rehab center a few years ago and they said something that was very interesting. They had a certain died that they fed all the animals. However, they watch how much and when they gave the meat-eaters their meat because it increased their animal passions and made them very agressive. Both a problem when having to deal with them at a close and constant basis.

Over time I reduced my meat consumption. First eliminating red meats and then down to chicken and smoked fish. The less I ate it the more it negatively effected my physical and mental condition (even when organic; however it was much less) when I consumed it,including giving me strong hormonal challenges (touchy subject but true). So I ate less and less until I no longer eat meat.

At first I would be challenged by smelling meat. . . hmmm, that smells yummy. but I found that if I had adequate protien levels in my diet I wouldn't even be tempted. There is protien in almost all plant foods including those peas you didn't want to eat as a kid. Omega 3 & 6? Not a problem; add flaxmeal and flaxseed to your diet. There are of course other plant sources of this.

And then with the alarming amount of diseases in animals (at that time I didn't have a local organic meat source to consider) I decided that I was no longer going to have meat in my house. So although I had been making my own dog food for some time I decided that my dog's were going to be vegetarians too.
Now don't freak out. This really worked. Lost our last dog at the ripe age of a couple months of 14 yrs; orginally a rescue dog. She hiked many many miles with me and everyone always thought she was 5-8 years younger than what she realy was. What I noticed with all the dogs (just like with people) was a change in the amount of lethargy thay had and attitudes they had. One thing I had to make sure, just like us (although we don't need nearly as much as a canine) is the amount of different protiens to cover all essential amino acids. The other thing that I noticed was that dark leafy greens were very essential--loads of them. Just as with people their joints, attitudes, skin condition were all effected. And just like people, taste buds can be trained. Their favorites would become some of our families favorites: tomatoes, whole wheat bread, grapes. . .etc.

If you want a recent publication on how different sources of protien effect the body and it's immune system try reading the book,
The China Study;
Startling Implications for diet, weight loss and long-term health
by, T. Colin Campbell, PhD.

I think it is about knowing your food sources too. There can sometimes be a need to thin out areas of high populations of dear for example. However, where these high populations of dear can be found for the hunting are also high populations of gmo grains and loads of chemical spraying. After raising animals for years, different species, and also being a vet tech more and more things are being seen within the animals systems because of what is out there and what people are doing for convenience and/or money.

I have made the choice to go organic with taking care of and feeding my herd of dairy goats. It is costly (actually to be truthful organic food/feed are the real costs of growing product) but I have seen how much it has cost many people around the US, especially the last several years, that continue to practice traditional care and feeding, costing the health of the animals, the environment and also the cost of the family itself.

well, enought for now.

Just some food for thought.

[HillsideDigger]

How much good farmland does it take to provide a healthy diet by means of natural farming methods production (no elaborate irrigation - think of the concrete, metal and electricity needed to get irrigation water from the Colorado River to the places whereits used for irrigation - or extreme use of chemical fertilizer and pesticides) for a vegan versus a person who consumes one pound a day of animal carcass and dairy products?

While there are many variables, I guess an approximation of a minimum would be 1/4 acre for the vegan versus 2.5 acres for the heavy meat and dairy eater (not to mention the acres of mining for the materials for the trucks and tractors or the ancient acres which are used in terms of fossil fuels and other such resources inherently used in mechanical/chemical farming). Note, worldwide, there is now less than 1.5 acres of farmland (and some not so good) per person and no, despite a popular notion to the contrary, there is not a vast amount of land in the world that could be converted to farming (what limited areas that might be converted would be at a further tremendous loss in the form of soil erosion, forests and/or biodiversity).

Consider water? An acre of farmland in the US Great Plains that receives 24" of rainfall per year (an area that could not grow corn well without irrigation) but can yield maybe 1,000 pounds of wheat, more with intensive fertilizer, still, thats 87,120 cubic feet of water at about 50 pounds per cubic foot, round numbers 4 million pounds of water per acre or 4,000 pounds of water to grow one pound of wheat which if fed to chickens is at what conversion rate? Lets say 15 pounds of wheat fed to chickens leads to one pound of consumable flesh growth. People might do better to consume the wheat (and soybeans and corn that are fed to the chickens), free range chickens take advantage of a lttle natural forage and of course many pasture and range lands can not grow human foods and might just as well be left for the wildlife.

So, the one pound of usable chicken flesh required 60,000 pounds of fresh water to produce. Under laboratory conditions, results would be otherwise (and I am sure some of you here are very familiar with these matters and might offer some real numbers for comparison)

but still, those with diets heavy in meat and dairy are in essence stealing the resources of the less fortunate (wildlife as well as people) in the world.

Another question - how many people could be sustained in this world as vegans (or nearly) versus heavy meat and dairy eaters?

[Cliff Timmons]

I have a two word answer to why I can't go vegan,

"Fried Chicken" <grin>

[redbrick]

Hey Cliff, how 'bout "T-bone"? Mmmmmm.

[Cliff Timmons]

Yeah, but that's another argument...... I guess. <grin>

[johno]

I never told you how that hippy friend of mine got me to be a vegetarian that one year in college... He showed up one day wearing a shirt with a cartoon cow with puppy dog eyes. Under the cow it read "Please don't kill me." Just thought you'd get a kick out of that... ;)

[TastyofHasty]

I was a vegetarian for about 4-5 years rather a while ago now. Was the healthiest I've ever been in my life (though I've always been healthy). Living in the heat of southern Louisiana, I noticed the vegetarian diet helped with not feeling hot! Which was really nice. I did eat cheese and milk occasionally ... and on Thanksgiving and Christmas, visiting people, I ate whatever meat they had (and it tasted DIVINE!) ... the book I relied on was called Diet for a Small Planet by Frances Moore Lappe. I will always respect this book, which discusses combining grains and legumes, or milk & potatoes, etc., to produce in a meal whole available protein including all amino acids.

But ... tonight we're having Louisiana-style "Dirty Rice," made with chicken livers & chicken gizzards & hearts ... and onions ... and celery ... and rice ... we still eat veggies, but I like 'em more than anybody else around here. I quit being vegetarian ... well ... rather a while ago now!

One thing about having been a vegetarian ... you recognize that Meat Does Not Make A Meal ... rather than thinking "what are we having tonight ... um ... chicken, beef, pork or fish" ... you have the gamut of vegetables to choose from to make the high point of the meal. And I do think of Beans as another "meat" option, usually including cheese with the beans, though.

[johno]

I wonder what is the last thing you ate and do you think it was healthy?(everybody)

For me it was two figs and a handfull of okra fried in peanut oil, breaded with egg and cornflour. I think only the peanut oil was questionable...

Who's next?

[Lavandula Girl]

Bowl of oatmeal with ginger and fresh raspberries, and about a pot and a half of coffee. The first is good for my health, the second is good for the health of everyone around me!

PS: here's today's Washington Post article on guilt free omnivorism, by the way
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/13/AR2006081300715.html

[GreenZone]

some sunflower seeds....healthy but am somehow feeling a bit deprived...

[TastyofHasty]

Eyah, Greenzone, you need to COMBINE the sunflower seeds with other type veggies (like grain and/or legume) ... you might like Diet for a Small Planet ... (get via interlibrary loan?) reason for 'deprived' feeling comes from shortage of one or more amino acids in just sunflower seeds alone ... the "limiting amino acid" makes the entire available protein only as much as the most "limited" one.

[johno]

Leftover pork chop and a bagel with strawberry flavored whipped cream cheese. Okay, the strawberry cream cheese was probably a bad idea, but I woke up craving it... I'm still working on my first pot of coffee...

Ginger with oatmeal? I'll have to try that. I usually have mine with blueberries.

Excellent point about "limiting amino acid." Now we're getting somewhere.

[Soapymomma]

i am not vegetarian , we rasise rabbits, and yes eat them , we have goats for dairy and meat, i used to eat a lot of chicken till we moved down here, now seeing how the critters are rasied , we eat chicken VERY seldom ,we have a pig being raised for us ,and still have pork left from last years piggle...
beef we purchase on occasion , but not often
we eat a LOT of veggies, our majority of meals in summer are veggies and produce from the garden , with a meat accompaniment, not the meat part first, the veggie part ...

ethically the production of meat on a small scale can be done susatianbly, but not the way the "industry" currently is .

[GreenCap]

I had a big glass of orange juice and zucchini sliced and dipped in egg and breadcrumbs then fried in olive oil with a sprinkle of cheddar cheese on top.....mmmm

[zebraman]

Hey Guys;You must grasp logistical efficiencies.What does a cow eat?Hay and corn.And what are these?Vegetables.So a steak is nothing more than an efficient mechanism of delivering vegetables to your system.Need grain?Eat chicken.Beef is also a good source of field grass (Green leafy vegetable).And a pork chop can give you 100% of your recommended daily allowance of vegetable products.-

[HillsideDigger]

I wonder what is the last thing you ate and do you think it was healthy?(everybody)

I eat dinner late this time of year due to being outside all evening.

Brenda fixed some conventional potato salad (mayo has animal products), to which I added for us cucumbers and store bought artichokes plus balsamic vinagarette dressing and a pot sauteed medley in olive oil of cutoff corn, green beans, squash, okra, tomatoes, cabbage, onions and bell peppers topped with blue cheesse dressing (animal product again), To anyone who might find such a meal lacking or revolting (Brenda often does), I found it completely satisfying.

[johno]

Mmmm. Bleu cheese. Mmmm.

[sunmad strawgirl]

So a steak is nothing more than an efficient mechanism of delivering vegetables to your system.Need grain?Eat chicken.Beef is also a good source of feild grass (Green leafy vegetable).And a pork chop can give you 100% of your recommended daily allowance of vegetable products.-
Gotta disagree with you on that, zebraman. If you're looking for a way to eat vegetables efficiently, I'd highly recommend actually just eating the vegetables themselves. Takes a lot of internal processing for vegetables to "turn" into meat and then a lot of human processing, transport and effort to get the meat to you (most often, at least). And meat is really not at all vegetable-like - not in anyone's version of the food pyramid.

Mmmmm - just ate corn on the cob; cucumber, tomato and onion salad from the garden (no dressing 'cause who needs one with garden tomatoes) and guacamole and corn-chips. I t felt pretty healthy (although I admit to butter on the corn and I shouldn't claim that eating that much avocado in one sitting was the best idea.)

[mrtomatoexpres]

when i go home or wake up i get my juiceman juicer carrots apples blueberries and watermelon noise but yummy i have lost a lot of weight from juicing i do eat meat :)

[SunflowerMeg]

Last thing I ate was homemade chicken noodle soup. I always get a second meal out of those organic chickens by boiling the carcass and turning it into soup, even if it is the middle of a very hot summer. I added organic carrots, onions and celery and my own herbs and the organic Udon fine noodles.

I'm in bit of a situation where I can't, and won't eat certain foods. Due to a health problem, I can't eat foods with VIT D or folic acid added (I'm not suppose to be out in the sun either). These two items limits just about everything in the grocery stores! :) The Udon noodles are expensive, but no folate added; organic whole milk is expensive, but it's the only milk in my area that doesn't add VIT D, and then only one of two brands, and only in the whole variety. Just about all breads in the grocery stores add folate now. So, I eat a lot of veggies and meat; meat has natural VIT D but isn't high in it, so I eat organic and grassfed.

Sugar is suppose to be a no-no too; even fruit is high in sugar. It doesn't mean I don't eat it, but only what's seasonal.

I'm about to eat 2 pieces of Eziekiel toast with a bit of butter and jam; that bread doesn't add folate either.

[mobi]

when i go home or wake up i get my juiceman juicer carrots apples blueberries and watermelon noise but yummy i have lost a lot of weight from juicing i do eat meat :)

I like my Vitamixer ,I get some seriously good smoothies out of it, plus I can puree some green vegetables to hide in tomatoe sauce for piza and spaghetti that my daughter and husband might not eat otherwise :p
I like meat ,but I can tell the next day when I have overconsumed beef,I can just feel it in my gut just sitting there,I'm thinking the daily recomended amount isn't much more than 6-8 oz. On days like those I will eat only fruits and vegeables,and plenty of water. Mobi

[Cliff Timmons]

I ate a Flintstone vitamin once,.... is that health food?

[johno]

Sorta'.

That reminds me, I heard that taking beta carotene supplements increases the risk of cancer in smokers.

[April]

I had barbequed chicken at a company picnic. It called out to me. First meat I'd eaten in days, though. As long as I have some kind of dairy, cheese and tofu and vegetables, I can live w/o meat for a few days. But I canNOT pass up barbecued chicken.

Since I quit my job...I've been able to sit in the backyard in the AM with my tall, frosty Coke(I don't drink coffee), go walking every morning, and after getting home and taking a shower, I make myself a smoothie consisting of a little vanilla yogurt, orange juice, strawberries, peaches and some pineapple. It's yum, and surprisingly filling.

So is elk meat, though I haven't had any for eons!

I don't really see a conflict with wearing leather goods and being a vegan/vegetarian. Most commercially available leather goods are made with hides from animals that were slaughtered for meat. I feel that if an animal must be killed for sustenance, then every part of the animal should be used, if possible.

In response to an earlier poster, I don't think native Americans used up everything in their local environment then moved on. I think they were too smart to do that. They only took what they needed, and moved on.

[mrtomatoexpres]

we used everything up and pushed them out we killed all the buffalo

[Cliff Timmons]

Many times we killed the buffalo to run off the indians since that was their main staple. We wanted them dependant on the government. Kind of like what many want us to be today. More dependent on the government for our living, like health care and other things. The more they provide, the more dependent we are on them.

Good grief, how did I get off on that tangent?

[balcony_belle]

I don't think it would be possible for me to be a vegetarian...I simply love meat too much. Perhaps I would have had a different opinion if my father hadn't been a chef that favored the butcher's block and spoiled me. But now that I know what I'd be missing...I would never be able to successfully pull off vegetarianism. I'm a dedicated omnivore and proud of it :) I respect the discipline it takes for people to be vegetarians due to their culture, or background, and especially after having meat in their diet; I'm in awe of the dedication it takes for people to be vegans--I just know that their choice will never be mine.

[HillsideDigger]

"American Diet to a vegetarian diet does more to fight global
warming than switching from a gas-guzzling SUV to a fuel-efficient
hybrid car. Of course, you can do both. Where the environment is
concerned, eating meat is like driving a huge SUV. According to Eshel,
eating a vegetarian diet is like driving a mid-sized car or a reasonable
sedan, and eating a vegan diet (no dairy, no eggs) is like riding a
bicycle or walking. Shifting away from SUVs and SUV-style diets, to much
more energy-efficient alternatives, is key to fighting the warming trend."

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/energyresources/message/93843

[johno]

That's a real eye opener. This puts vegetarianism firmly in the realm of a moral decision, huh?

[Cliff Timmons]

That's a real eye opener. This puts vegetarianism firmly in the realm of a moral decision, huh?

Great. I just realized,....... I'm an immoral eater. <sigh>

[johno]

Me too, cliff. The point is (assuming that the premise is correct) that If you know being vegetarian or vegan will decrease the rate of destruction of our planet, Even moreso than giving up your suv, and you don't do it, you are wittingly adding to the problem. Obviously us meat-eaters don't avoid being vegetarian for health reasons, but now that we know (presumably) that we are harming everyone else - indeed, every living thing on Earth - should we continue to do so? In other words, if we aren't vegetarians for ourselves, are we so selfish as to continue this behaviour to the detriment of everyone else, too?

So far I am; just making a point...

[Cliff Timmons]

I don't think so.

No more selfish than breathing in air. We have to exist. If it wern't for us carnivours the balance would be all out of wack.

And what roll does a rabbit play? It's a great meat source, reproduces quickly, skins easily and is killed by looking at it sideways. Tell me God didn't make those for food. <grin>

[Lavandula Girl]

Personally, I think we'd do better to be omnivores and not wasteful than to simply go vegetarian. If you look at the amount of food thrown away daily in this country, it has to be a bigger drain on the environment (and society as a whole) than my family's decision to have an occasional roast chicken. The number of fast food and chain food restaurants, for example, who throw away enormous amounts of food every day because it has passed beyond some arbitrary limit of aesthetic pleasantry. Of course, individually owned restaurants do this as well. And groceries' dumpsters, with the bruised apples, and milk at it's sell by date. Consumers have gotten to the point that only fruit of a certain size, shape and beauty can be offered in the produce section. Only hermetically sealed and dyed meat can be displayed (Walmart is famous for this). Here on this forum, we're really preaching to the choir, because we all know that each tomato on the vine is not of an exactly uniform color and size, but try telling that to the average consumer! Last year I was working at the elementary school, and part of the school lunch was broiled chicken. The amount of chicken going into the trash was astronomical! It's a habit we teach our kids knowingly. "Oh honey, if you don't like that, throw it away, we'll get you something else later." Frugality is a dying art. I actually shocked a colleague once because I said I always saved the bones from whatever meat we had to make stocks and soups! She said, "Can't you afford to buy soup?" Good lord!

[Cliff Timmons]

Personally, I think we'd do better to be omnivores and not wasteful than to simply go vegetarian. If you look at the amount of food thrown away daily in this country, it has to be a bigger drain on the environment (and society as a whole) than my family's decision to have an occasional roast chicken. The number of fast food and chain food restaurants, for example, who throw away enormous amounts of food every day because it has passed beyond some arbitrary limit of aesthetic pleasantry. Of course, individually owned restaurants do this as well. And groceries' dumpsters, with the bruised apples, and milk at it's sell by date. Consumers have gotten to the point that only fruit of a certain size, shape and beauty can be offered in the produce section. Only hermetically sealed and dyed meat can be displayed (Walmart is famous for this). Here on this forum, we're really preaching to the choir, because we all know that each tomato on the vine is not of an exactly uniform color and size, but try telling that to the average consumer! Last year I was working at the elementary school, and part of the school lunch was broiled chicken. The amount of chicken going into the trash was astronomical! It's a habit we teach our kids knowingly. "Oh honey, if you don't like that, throw it away, we'll get you something else later." Frugality is a dying art. I actually shocked a colleague once because I said I always saved the bones from whatever meat we had to make stocks and soups! She said, "Can't you afford to buy soup?" Good lord!
Great Post

[HillsideDigger]

The waste of food scraps in the US is huge

but they say it is not economical to gather these wastes and compost them, at the buffet, they just throw out the partially picked over casserole and set out a fresh one.

Those bones and almost all food scraps are excellent to incorporate into soil.

Many of the environmental benefits of vegetarianism can be gained simply from eating less meat and dairy.

Most of the world has no choice. I guess about 1/3rd. are almost vegetarian, 1/3rd. consume only a modest amount of meat and dairy and 1/3rd. eat more than enough or to much meat and dairy.

[Lavandula Girl]

"but they say it is not economical to gather these wastes and compost them, at the buffet, they just throw out the partially picked over casserole and set out a fresh one."


That's exactly my point! What is wrong with us when we're unwilling to be served out of a 1/2 full chafing dish at a BUFFET, for pete's sake! And most of those restaurants Hillside Digger and I mentioned don't let the employees take the food, either, citing bogus health concerns (read "they aren't going to pay for it, so they can't have it") Policy usually states that all food must be immediately disposed of in the dumpster, and some chains go so far as to make it inedible before doing so by running soapy water over it. Supposedly this discourages rats and dumpster divers from stealing from the dumpster. Whatever. I'm not saying I don't suffer from some of the same misconceptions.... I don't recycle as much as I should, probably not everything that could go into my compost does. While I try to buy locally and organically, it isn't a religion at my house. Overall, though, if we each were frugal with just one or two things in our life that we didn't used to be, the effect on the environment would be substantial.

PS to Cliff, thanks for the compliment XOXO

[HillsideDigger]

Think about how much energy is used in America just to 'haul off and dispose of the garbage'.

My step-daughter was really offended when I suggested she just throw her food scraps out into the yard, they don't garden and she lives in a rural area right across the driveway from us, rather than place them in the garbage bag to haul to the dumpster site. I then said, just save them in a container and I will pick them up daily for my garden. She gave me a look like I was from another planet. Education is a slow process and for many only arrives with necessity.

Less garbage means big energy savings means less oil imports and a higher percentage of our energy which can be domestically obtained.

[sunmad strawgirl]

Having a knowledge of the problems we face and being mindful of our own effect on the world seems to me to be one of the most important things. There is no one right way. I'm a vegetarian and have been for a long time and it works for me. I love the food I eat and have never felt that I am sacrificing anything for my principles. And if I were eating vegetables and fruit out of season, shipped to me from far away, I could be as vegetarian as possible and still be consuming vastly more energy and resources than if I was eating seasonally (of course this is easier here in CA where I can grow greens year-round and overwinter quite a few tasty root vegetables). People who eat meat produced locally might not be as efficient as vegetarians who eat local vegetables, but they are conserving much more than people who eat at fast-food restaurants every day. Using and then reusing everything we can and recycling and composting what is left can also make a huge difference, no matter what our dietary habits. People need to find the solutions that work for them, keep them and their families comfortable, healthy and happy AND contribute to the overall well-being of the world as a whole (tall order I suppose . . .).
One thing I also deeply believe is that the more connected we feel to others throughout the world community, the easier it is to be mindful of how our own actions affect the whole system. The more viscerally we can feel the pains and problems that affect people far away from us (not only in distance but also in world-view), the more we care about how our actions may harm them. The less theoretical and intelluctual our view of others and their suffering, the more willing we will be to adjust our own activites and modes of living to lessen the harm we do.

[rosehebrew]

I agree with you it is for a lot of reasons that I am a vegan. But the main one is health.
I had:
Bipolar disorder (supposably) and on a very strong med
Diabeties
High blood pressure
and bad headaches
I went on an 85% raw and 15% cooked diet, eat no grains, only use stevia, changed to pure water, no coffee and no packaged food and I am now off all medication. It was a drastc change but I had drastic problems. My body was not alkalized enough and I was too toxic. So now I feel 100% better, have lost weight without hunger and am much stronger to face the world. I prayed for an answer to my fading life and this is what I was led to do. It feels so good not to be a slave to drugs and big Pharma. I have became more aware of even the variety of veggies and fruit that I eat. Many people have been cured of many desieses including cancer eating this way so as I do not judge anybody, this is my path to get back to and keep my health.
Thanks
Rosehebrew
www.hacres.com has some info that you don't have to pay for.




Zebraman, ya, but it sure is an easy target.

Johno, I prefer Thai, South East Asian, Napalese and Indian foods.
I love so many of their dishes and really miss Thailand! My favorite thai dish is Red Curry... but I just love Indian samosas, etc. etc.

Lavandula, good question, it is for many reasons, both health and moral, which to me kind of run into the same issue, as health is a moral choice for me. The main reasons is: modern meat/milk/egg production is cruel, full of hormones, chemicals and un-healthy condtions, also it takes many times the amount of labor, fuel, chemicals & water to produce a pound of meat that it does produce, and meat will store many times the pesticides that vegetables will.

So with that said I encorage a total boycot on mass produced animal products, and for those who still want them, I think you are much better off raising your own!

But on that note I have a hard time killing (or eating) my own...

so here I am a vegetable!



Jere

[countrygma]

I agree with you it is for a lot of reasons that I am a vegan. But the main one is health.
snip..

Hi Rose,

My husband and I are in the process of going to all raw foods. We are doing it to improve our health. We don't use any prescription drugs, but we don't want to either as we get older. We have some issues, but have dealt with them using supplements and good eating habits..but we want to do better.

I will miss a good steak, and have not vowed to eat this way forever, but will for at least a month. then we will see if we add any cooked foods or meat back.

We have lots of things we want to do yet, and they will be more fun if we improve our health and then stay healthy.

I applaude you for your success. I am reading one of Victoria Boutenko's books on how her family went raw, and the way illnesses can be over come is amazing.

[countrygma]

I wonder what is the last thing you ate and do you think it was healthy?(everybody)

For me it was two figs and a handfull of okra fried in peanut oil, breaded with egg and cornflour. I think only the peanut oil was questionable...

Who's next?

We had raw veggie soup which included tomatoes, zucchini, onion, avocado, carrots, a bit of basil and italian seasoning.. a couple of T of coconut oil.. blended until creamy and warm in the vita mixer..

and.. zucchette..which is zucchini made into spaghetti with a raw tomato sauce over the top.

Both were very tasty and healthy. :p

[countrygma]

There are people who swear by vegetarianism whether for scientific, religious, or ethical reasons. And there are those who believe meat is required in your diet for a variety of reasons. I just wondered where everybody stands on this issue? :confused:

I just realized how old this thread is.. oh well..it's still a good one..worth being revived for us newbies. ;)

[Echinacea Pepperfoot]

Just another vegetarian newbie. :)

I eat eggs and dairy, along with occasional fish, but I find that I really don't need fish very often. I'm one of those non-bean-eating vegetarians (well, I eat them rarely), and I especially stay away from soy! It's funny, because it's to my detriment sometimes to tell people I'm vegetarian. They always assume (and always serve me) soy or tofu. I've read too much about the health risks of soy to be comfortable with it.

Even beyond the typical arguments against soy for many various reasons are the way soy is processed that makes it toxic. There's a new book out called Twinkie Deconstructed. Very good. Very inspiring to a preparing-from-scratch diet. Without soy.

I've been vegetarian for 4.5 years. I'm not one of the militant ones. Oh sure, I have my opinions about what you all eat, but I don't force my vegetarianism on people, and I even prepare meat when my job calls for it. I used to miss meat, but now, the odor of most cooked meats (especially beef) make my stomach feel ill.

To each their own.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think both quinoa and shiitake mushrooms have all the amino acids. And maybe pumpkin seeds too? Either way, I just give myself a varied diet, and it's working out pretty well for me.

P.S. My ex went grew up with and went to school with Frances Lappe's daughter. I see that woman's name everywhere on vegetarian propaganda. Always makes me think of my ex.

[countrygma]

Just another vegetarian newbie. :)

I eat eggs and dairy, along with occasional fish, but I find that I really don't need fish very often. I'm one of those non-bean-eating vegetarians (well, I eat them rarely), and I especially stay away from soy! It's funny, because it's to my detriment sometimes to tell people I'm vegetarian. They always assume (and always serve me) soy or tofu. I've read too much about the health risks of soy to be comfortable with it.

Even beyond the typical arguments against soy for many various reasons are the way soy is processed that makes it toxic. There's a new book out called Twinkie Deconstructed. Very good. Very inspiring to a preparing-from-scratch diet. Without soy.

I've been vegetarian for 4.5 years. I'm not one of the militant ones. Oh sure, I have my opinions about what you all eat, but I don't force my vegetarianism on people, and I even prepare meat when my job calls for it. I used to miss meat, but now, the odor of most cooked meats (especially beef) make my stomach feel ill.

To each their own.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think both quinoa and shiitake mushrooms have all the amino acids. And maybe pumpkin seeds too? Either way, I just give myself a varied diet, and it's working out pretty well for me.

P.S. My ex went grew up with and went to school with Frances Lappe's daughter. I see that woman's name everywhere on vegetarian propaganda. Always makes me think of my ex.

I agree with your 100% about soy. I read an article by a lipid chemist named Mary Enig about 10 years ago and started watching for it in foods, but got real serious about buying foods without it after reading, The Whole Soy Story.

Bad stuff.

I'm wondering now as I write this if I"m repeating myself. Sometimes time is too long between posting on these threads.. sorry if I did.

[pixelphoto]

reminded me of a joke i gotta tell it.
how do you know the difference betwen a Northern Zoo and a Southern Zoo?
the northern zoo has animals in cages with a sign under them describing the animal.
The southern zoo has animals in cages with a sign under them describing the animal and a recipe.

LOL I can tell that because Im from the South LOL :)

[Orgarden]

I'm glad this thread was revived, too. Strange timing too! Just started reading "The Omnivore's Dilemma" and last night, after about the 5th chapter, I was ready to swear off meat. My Other-Half started whining "I'm never going to have a hamburger again!" when I happened to come across a list of grass-fed beef farms in my area earlier today. Guess what we're doing ;)

I admire the strength of vegetarians to stay away from meat. I know I could in a nicely controlled environment but put me in a restaurant with steak and it's all over.

As far as meat eating being worse than an SUV... there are two reasons why I, personally, would disagree with that. It is not the action of eating meat (or creating demand for meat) that is the problem but the way animals, and therefore our meat, are processed. If all food animals were raised properly, many issues would not exist but there would be a limited supply of meat.

This leads me to the other reason. The belief is that it would take less land to feed a vegetarian than a meat-eater. Would the land allocated for food production (sustainable either way of course) shrink because everyone switched solely to vegetables to accommodate the existing population? Unfortunately, it would most likely increase food production quickly which would only allow a sharp human population increase, most likely in the form of larger cities and sprawling suburbs.

[ovenbird]

I think a vegetarian diet is healthy, earth friendly, and Biblically sound. We believe that Adam and Eve were vegetarians, or more so fruitarians, and we know that for at least a time Daniel and his friends were vegetarians and were very healthy and strong during that time. I am happy with vegetarian, and even vegan food, but am married to a carnivore, so we have meat and poultry, and seafood regularly.

[Painted Goat]

I'm glad this thread was revived, too. Strange timing too! Just started reading "The Omnivore's Dilemma" and last night, after about the 5th chapter, I was ready to swear off meat. My Other-Half started whining "I'm never going to have a hamburger again!" when I happened to come across a list of grass-fed beef farms in my area earlier today. Guess what we're doing ;)

I admire the strength of vegetarians to stay away from meat. I know I could in a nicely controlled environment but put me in a restaurant with steak and it's all over.

As far as meat eating being worse than an SUV... there are two reasons why I, personally, would disagree with that. It is not the action of eating meat (or creating demand for meat) that is the problem but the way animals, and therefore our meat, are processed. If all food animals were raised properly, many issues would not exist but there would be a limited supply of meat.

This leads me to the other reason. The belief is that it would take less land to feed a vegetarian than a meat-eater. Would the land allocated for food production (sustainable either way of course) shrink because everyone switched solely to vegetables to accommodate the existing population? Unfortunately, it would most likely increase food production quickly which would only allow a sharp human population increase, most likely in the form of larger cities and sprawling suburbs.

If you liked "O.D." then I also recommend "Animal Vegetable Miracle" by Barbara Kingsolver and "Real Food" by Nina Planck.

I did the vegetarian thing in high school and almost killed myself cause I can't tolerate corn or soy (and yet I live in IL go figure). I now know these things and comsume a diet of about 85-95% veggies and some grains. I also eat cheese and home grown meats. I could survive without meat, but the husband always gives me a look when I serve a non meat meal and I remind him its because I love him and there have been too many heart attacks in his family. :)

Kathryn

[LaRae]

I think a vegetarian diet is healthy, earth friendly, and Biblically sound. We believe that Adam and Eve were vegetarians, or more so fruitarians, and we know that for at least a time Daniel and his friends were vegetarians and were very healthy and strong during that time. I am happy with vegetarian, and even vegan food, but am married to a carnivore, so we have meat and poultry, and seafood regularly.

Well Jesus ate Lamb so we know He wasn't a vegan :)

Adam and Eve were immortal until the fall so it wouldn't of mattered what they ate while in Eden.

What passages indicate Daniel and his friends were vegetarians? I can't remember? But if they were, 'for a time', perhaps that's something too...that they wouldn't of done it permanently, but perhaps more for a situation of fasting or out of necessity due to lack of meat and/or living conditions.


LaRae

[bunkie]

what i would like to know is how those who are eating a 'raw' veggie and fruit diet acquire such produce in the dead of winter? up here in the northwest a lot of the winter variety produce is from other countries. i am working on growing greens and such during the winter months, maybe toms and peppers in a heated area of the cabin or greenhouse, but other than that, everything from our gardens must be canned, frozen or dried for winter use...cept the apples and pears on our back porch...they froze this year, but when thawed are still delish!

[HOD]

A vegitarian meal is delicious, especially if you serve it with a big slab of steak!

hod.

[southernfried]

reminded me of a joke i gotta tell it.
how do you know the difference betwen a Northern Zoo and a Southern Zoo?
the northern zoo has animals in cages with a sign under them describing the animal.
The southern zoo has animals in cages with a sign under them describing the animal and a recipe.

LOL I can tell that because Im from the South LOL :)


I had to laugh when I read the last line. :D

[countrygma]

reminded me of a joke i gotta tell it.
how do you know the difference betwen a Northern Zoo and a Southern Zoo?
the northern zoo has animals in cages with a sign under them describing the animal.
The southern zoo has animals in cages with a sign under them describing the animal and a recipe.

LOL I can tell that because Im from the South LOL :)

Funny. :D

[countrygma]

I think a vegetarian diet is healthy, earth friendly,snip.

I have to question your statement, and say.. IMO, the health of the diet, earth friendliness, I assume you mean over raising meat, depends on many things.

I have seen and known, many vegans who were very unhealthy, due completely to their diet. If a person can be overweight on a vegan diet, they are eating the wrong things. Many, maybe even most, vegans tend to eat a ton of unhealthy soy and grains and lots of cooked food.

My studies and experience have shown me that unless meat and grains, whether cooked or raw, are only 20% of a person's diet, they probably won't stay healthy over the long haul.

And now, the more I study, and experiment, the more I realize how important raw fruit and vegetables are.:)

As far as earth friendly, meat only becomes earth unfriendly if it is managed poorly and if it is raised to address a grain fed meat market. Animals that are raised for the grassfed, organic market, by ranchers knowledgeable of pasture management, are very earth friendly "crops".

I won't argue the religious aspect.

[countrygma]

Hey Guys;You must grasp logistical efficiencies.What does a cow eat?Hay and corn.And what are these?Vegetables.So a steak is nothing more than an efficient mechanism of delivering vegetables to your system.Need grain?Eat chicken.Beef is also a good source of field grass (Green leafy vegetable).And a pork chop can give you 100% of your recommended daily allowance of vegetable products.-

Actually, healthy cows only eat grass and hay. And technically, corn is not a vegetable, it is a seed, and a sugary unhealthy one at that. Feedlot cattle often eat a variety of grains, and that is not good for their healthy or ours either.

I think you were making a joke, but your point that we are what the animal is fed is true, and mostly if they are fed to sustain the SAD, that is not a good thing. ;)

[countrygma]

I'm glad this thread was revived, too. Strange timing too! Just started reading "The Omnivore's Dilemma" and last night, after about the 5th chapter, I was ready to swear off meat. My Other-Half started whining "I'm never going to have a hamburger again!" when I happened to come across a list of grass-fed beef farms in my area earlier today. Guess what we're doing ;)

I understand why you would swear off anything but local grass fed meat. We did that several years ago. We do eat an occasion steak out, but never chicken or fish. As time goes by and we refine our diet, we probably will eat less and less meat, in fact we all ready are. We have been buying a half a beef a year from a local grass fed farmer. This past year we have eaten a lot less of it, and we aren't going to buy one this year as we gravitate more and more towards more vegetables and fruit. Your Other-Half, might end up wanting to stay on a diet with less meat if he notices he feels better, which is likely.

I admire the strength of vegetarians to stay away from meat. I know I could in a nicely controlled environment but put me in a restaurant with steak and it's all over.

I am finding it easier and easier to just eat a nice salad. The more I find out about what is in mass produced meat, and the better I feel, the less I am inclined to eat itl

As far as meat eating being worse than an SUV... there are two reasons why I, personally, would disagree with that. It is not the action of eating meat (or creating demand for meat) that is the problem but the way animals, and therefore our meat, are processed. If all food animals were raised properly, many issues would not exist but there would be a limited supply of meat.

I agree with that too, and I wonder, if everyone cut back the amount of meat they eat to a healthy portion, if we could infact raise enough to meet the demand. Better yet, would be to swear off supporting the big packers, (let them ship their unhealthy crap overseas) and buy instead of local farmers/ranchers who are raising healthy meat.

This leads me to the other reason. The belief is that it would take less land to feed a vegetarian than a meat-eater. Would the land allocated for food production (sustainable either way of course) shrink because everyone switched solely to vegetables to accommodate the existing population? Unfortunately, it would most likely increase food production quickly which would only allow a sharp human population increase, most likely in the form of larger cities and sprawling suburbs.

An interesting theory, but perhaps the increase in production of vegetation could go to producing plants that can be made into fuel and stop our dependence of foreign oil.

[countrygma]

what i would like to know is how those who are eating a 'raw' veggie and fruit diet acquire such produce in the dead of winter? up here in the northwest a lot of the winter variety produce is from other countries. i am working on growing greens and such during the winter months, maybe toms and peppers in a heated area of the cabin or greenhouse, but other than that, everything from our gardens must be canned, frozen or dried for winter use...cept the apples and pears on our back porch...they froze this year, but when thawed are still delish!

Bunkie,

I understand your frustration. Until this winter, we have not eaten as many vegetables and fruit as we do in the summer due to not being able to buy locally. But we decided this year it is more important to eat enough fresh fruits and veggies than it is to worry about where it is coming from. I scrub everything thoroughly, whether is it organic or not, as I don't trust the USDA and their organic labeling.

I know that doesn't get all the toxins off, but we also take a daily supplement that takes care of toxins.

We have recently joined a local group of people who are equally concerned about local produce, and hopefully we will be joining forces to build some greenhouses and be able to grow healthy veggies in the winter.

Another thing I am studying, is eating more sprouts in the winter, which can easily be grown right in most people's houses.

[greenmountaingirl]

be sure to monitor your protein and nutrient intake! vegetarianism is not an excuse to live off chocolate cake. don't go in for packaged meat substitutes either, they're full of salt and bad fats usually. making your own delishious bean burgers and balls to top spaghetti is as easy as making cookies and they can be frozen till you need them.
all said and done though not everyone is wiiling to go veggie. if you must eat meat, eggs, and dairy please support your local family farms. seeing where your food comes from and knowing how it lived is just responsible and you can feel good about keeping corporations out of your fridge. the taste is beyond comparision also!

[Painted Goat]

be sure to monitor your protein and nutrient intake! vegetarianism is not an excuse to live off chocolate cake. don't go in for packaged meat substitutes either, they're full of salt and bad fats usually. making your own delishious bean burgers and balls to top spaghetti is as easy as making cookies and they can be frozen till you need them.
all said and done though not everyone is wiiling to go veggie. if you must eat meat, eggs, and dairy please support your local family farms. seeing where your food comes from and knowing how it lived is just responsible and you can feel good about keeping corporations out of your fridge. the taste is beyond comparision also!

I always tell those who want to go more vegetarian to replace their meat with vegetables not meat substitutes because bottom line is the meat subs are just more processed food. Even if local stuff isn't "organic" you sure can know exactly how something is raised and how it is fed. There are many family farms now producing their own meat and often they have some extras they could sell. You may need to approach them but don't be afraid to ask.

Kathryn

[countrygma]

I always tell those who want to go more vegetarian to replace their meat with vegetables not meat substitutes because bottom line is the meat subs are just more processed food. Even if local stuff isn't "organic" you sure can know exactly how something is raised and how it is fed. There are many family farms now producing their own meat and often they have some extras they could sell. You may need to approach them but don't be afraid to ask.

Kathryn

Kathryn,

You make excellent points.

I have learned though, that meat substitutes include raw, whole nuts, which are soaked and ground and then used for meats in recipes. I have some raw nuts on order from Azure and will let everyone know how that turned out.

We all ready buy our meat local, grass fed, and are not looking at substitutes because we have any kind of moral thing against properly grown meat, but because we are trying a raw diet to see how it affects our health.

[Painted Goat]

Kathryn,

You make excellent points.

I have learned though, that meat substitutes include raw, whole nuts, which are soaked and ground and then used for meats in recipes. I have some raw nuts on order from Azure and will let everyone know how that turned out.

We all ready buy our meat local, grass fed, and are not looking at substitutes because we have any kind of moral thing against properly grown meat, but because we are trying a raw diet to see how it affects our health.

The raw diet did wonders for my aunt. I make a point of eating a lot of raw foods, but I love cooking so I don't think I'll give that up just yet. :)

Kathryn

[julianna]

Chick peas are actually a complete protien as well :) I am a mostly-vegetarian.. I never ate much meat to begin with and as a kid when my dad got high cholestoral my mom just switched us over to a low-cholestoral diet. At any rate, I'm slightly lactose intolerant (but I LOVE cheese, go figure) and my gall bladder works-- but not very well. So I figured out that if I stopped eating fried things, stopped eating much meat, and kept low on the fats, oils, lipids in general-- I am perfectly fine and maintained use of all my parts! So I'm not opposed to eating meat, I just limit it severely. That said, when i visited Jordan and had a crash course in local fare, I noticed I didn't get hives from eating beef there and wasn't even close to being as sick as I was if I ate the same foods prepared in the US.

[babygarden]

We are vegetarian in our house by choice but also for religious reasons.
I am a lifelong vegetarian, even thought I grew up in a family of hardcore meat eaters - my mother's native american and father's Irish, plus our freezer was always stocked with venison.
Hubby is from India and his family is vegetarian, but he started to eat meat in college days and when he came to this country. It is interesting that he caved into society pressure and started eating meat whereas someone who grew up here has never touched the stuff. We are Hindu, and beef is forbidden, although any meat is really not good if you are strict like I am. He still eats meat sometimes outside of the home, but I don't cook it and our daughter is vegetarian.
His family has been vegetarian forever, and they are all happy and healthy and no health problems stemming from this - as long as you eat a healthy balanced diet, you can get plenty of protein from other sources, so meat is not a required part of the diet. That said, we know many people who HAVE to have their meat, and in our experience, Gemini's are usually heavy meat-eaters, haahaaa...
:)

[Grass Hopper]

Veggie bacon sucks! So does life without bacon, and the only thing that can make a tomato better is bacon.

[Painted Goat]

Veggie bacon sucks! So does life without bacon, and the only thing that can make a tomato better is bacon.

How sad for you....you must grow lousy tomatoes :) Mine taste best by themselves straight off the vine!

[Grass Hopper]

PG, Good dig...Do you want to come turn my new beds?

I said "better"... they are already great. If you haven't seen Rattatoui (sp) I suggest you rent it. There is a great scene about the discovery of flavors. Every adult should see it to remind us of the true joy of cooking.

Also we do eat about 1/2 veggie because we only eat FR, Local, and Organic meats from people we know or from the birds we grow. The only exception to that are the Burger's Hams we smuggle back from Missouri.

[Painted Goat]

PG, Good dig...Do you want to come turn my new beds?

I said "better"... they are already great. If you haven't seen Rattatoui (sp) I suggest you rent it. There is a great scene about the discovery of flavors. Every adult should see it to remind us of the true joy of cooking.

Also we do eat about 1/2 veggie because we only eat FR, Local, and Organic meats from people we know or from the birds we grow. The only exception to that are the Burger's Hams we smuggle back from Missouri.

I LOVE that movie (kids got it for Christmas) because I've always been a fan of cooking. As to the dig, I gotta get my digging in somewhere it's been sooooo cold lately I can't work outside :(. I too eat meat, but pork is unclean and yucky (in my not so overly stated opinion :) )

Kathryn

[FlipTX]

I admire the strength of vegetarians to stay away from meat.
It's not hard for me, at all. I had a harder time "forcing" myself to eat meat when I was growing up.

Often when people learn that I'm vegetarian, they'll ask me how I can possibly get enough protein or nutrition. I rarely take vitamins or mineral supplements, but every yearly blood test I've ever had has shown I have perfectly normal levels of amino acids, vitamins, minerals, etc. In contrast, I have relatives who eat red meat several times a week and are frequently anemic. You can be healthy or unhealthy on any kind of regimen. I think being mindful of what you eat is key, no matter what you eat.