Mangel Wurzel & beet questions

[TastyofHasty]

Some questions for those of you who may have grown mangel wurzels (fodder beets). Are they easy to grow? Do they produce abundant seed? Just checked on Seed to Seed & listed for species Beta Vulgaris are both mangel wurzels and sugar beets. Would they cross, I wonder? (BTW, Can people eat sugar beets?) Mangel wurzels are supposed to get very big (20 lbs) whereas sugar beets get @ 8-15 lbs. If you wanted to produce ethanol, would it be possible to cross mangel wurzels and sugar beets to get a very big sugar beet that people could grow to make mash to distill to make ethanol to run their cars? BEETHANOL :p

You could distill them with a solar oven which would beeeeeeee ... a ... BEET-OVEN ... hee hee hee!

:eek:

[johno]

I've grown mangels. They do get pretty big and horsey, but I've never had one get as heavy as the catalog says... I have a hard time believing they would do so in an average field.

I should probably check before saying this, but I'm too lazy to get up right now. I'm pretty sure all the beets can cross pollinate. Your theory sounds good to me.

Bing Bang Bong - rollover beet-oven...

[bluelacedredhead]

Does this mean that more people will be driving Beet-les?? :D

[GreenZone]

Yes all beets are the same species (Beta vulgaris)and can cross. The book says "wind pollinated" and they cross freely. I probably had some 10-12 pound mangels one year. They grow a very large portion of the root above the soil surface however (or at least mine did) and overwintering was a problem. You could mulch, or you might lift, store and replant. Otherwise the tops of the roots freeze and the plant fails to come back in spring, which is when they begin the process of making seed.

As to crossing to make BIG sugar beets one would think if it were possible it'd have been done, industry being what it is. But maybe no one has tried.

Randel

[TastyofHasty]

From what I've been reading, sugar beets are DESCENDED from mangel wurzels.

also ... sugar beets CAN be eaten but are considered "animal food" and people only ate them under great duress ... like during WWII ... hiding and starving people ate them ... and complained about it years later!

also I'm getting the impression from what I'm seeing that sugar beet seed seems to be in great demand all over the world ...

[sharon1957]

I'm not sure if this reply to an old thread will be seen, but I'll give it a shot. I searched for mangel because I was wondering, what kind of livestock is it forage for? I'm deciding what animals to prepare for first, and don't know what thrives on it, what prep it needs for different animals (hard to imagine rabbits nawing on a 20 lb beet, but I don't have a clue).
We love beet greens and occasionally pickled beets, so we could set aside some ground for our veggies this year and forage & seed (do I have the timeline right?) the next year.
I've been thinking of two areas that alternate between growing forage and 'free range.' And wondering what mix of forage plants would optimize health of a range of a few animals -- lots of chickesn, one or two or three herd grazers/foragers, some rabbits over some worms. (Current thinking. Next plan: tune in tomorrow.)
Considering:
Amaranth
Shallu
Sesame
Millet
Flax
Mangel
Sorghum
Pumpkin
Austrian Winter Pea
Are some of them impossible in today's 6-7 zone border zone? Do some animals refuse some of these edibles? Do some make good companion or consecutive plantings? Which ones require processing in what fashion for what stock?
Anything else I didn't think to ask. Any links or books or variety/breed recommendations. Any help welcome.
Only memory of family growing forage was Nannie growing beets, so that's kind of a special interest.

[Emerald]

A couple of years ago I let my golden beets go too long and they were woody so I pull the rest of them and fed them to the chickens and they devoured them! I'll bet cows and horses would like them too, pig will eat almost anything.. Now I haven't done it but my Aunty would grow the sugar beets and just cut the tops and eat them like spinach or regular beets and said that they were great that way, and the bottoms would go out to the pigs... well all but one, one sugar beet would be cut up and one or two pieces would go in the regular beet jars during canning-- my Aunty claimed it made them sweeter.

[Imp]

I am not sure, but have read that sugar beets are good eaten when small. Ditto on the mangels- supposed to eat them ( humans) when small. What is small to a 20 pound beet, though?

I guess if more people used them for ethanol and drove beet les, then they would be the beet generation again, plus you could always tell them to beet it if they played the beet oven too loudly!

That would just beet all.

[atxjess]

It sure would beet gas prices!:D

[Imp]

Can't beet that at all!

[flaquita]

Sugar beets are indeed in great demand. We are feeding the dried and reconstituted beet pulp to our horses and the prices have been going up and up. Not sure if it's used to make ethanol or hwat is going on.
Tasty I have heard some of the stories of people having to eat sugar beets and Mangel after WWII (my parents and grandparents) and they were complaining about it...

[melodyelf]

From what I've been reading, sugar beets are DESCENDED from mangel wurzels.

also ... sugar beets CAN be eaten but are considered "animal food" and people only ate them under great duress ... like during WWII ... hiding and starving people ate them ... and complained about it years later!

also I'm getting the impression from what I'm seeing that sugar beet seed seems to be in great demand all over the world ...

potatoes and corn were also, at various times, considered animal food not fit for human consumption. it is a cultural idea based on the personal preferences of the people living at the time. we might not like some of the foods that were popular during WWII. I'd be willing to try eating a sugar beet.

[sharon1957]

potatoes and corn were also, at various times, considered animal food not fit for human consumption. it is a cultural idea based on the personal preferences of the people living at the time. we might not like some of the foods that were popular during WWII. I'd be willing to try eating a sugar beet.

Oats, too. Love me some oats!

[TastyofHasty]

Where to buy "giant sugar beet" seed (though he's selling it in a KIT with other seeds):
http://www.seedman.com/oddity.htm

I grew BC's "Golden Cylindrical" mangel wurzels last year. They were quite mild for beets, actually quite TASTY.:) Just grew one row of them. They were a little under a foot long, generally, about maybe 3" or 4" across. I'm hoping at least one has survived the winter so it'll go to seed.

[cybercat]

OK I know this is a very old thread. But for those that fed beets to chickens and other livestock. How did you fed the beets whole, chopped what? I just bought seed for this purpose so would like to know.

[happydog]

I was going to buy mangels for my cows but from what I've read you have to chop them up. Since they're big and hard that makes for a tough job. Farmers used to have a machine called a beet chopper or grinder but they're expensive unless you're feeding a lot of animals. If you don't have one you have to manually chop them up with a knife.

Birds apparently can gnaw them down but cows and horses choke if they're not chopped up good. I decided I don't want to add beet chopping to my daily chore list. It's bad enough I have to wash the cow's laundry (milk cow.) I don't want to be her personal chef, too.

[Eristic]

This is an interwsting thread to me as I have been growing them for a few years now for my own consumption.

Can I first say that the 20lb root used to be grown as I can recall watching the men working the fields in my childhood harvesting by hand the pumpkin sized beet, but they do not fit into modern automation so smaller varieties have been bred. Smaller varieties can grow closer together keeping the yield per acre similar, but seed catalgue writers are notorious for exagerating.

My worzels typically get to 1+ kilo but this could probably be doubled or tripled if planted in the best soil. These beet are very nutritious and sweet, but like anything else new, an aquired taste. My feeling is that these fell out of use as human food simply because it became far more valuable as animal fodder.

Worzels are sweet enough to make ethanol without bothering with trying to make a new cross but as has already been said, they are wind polinated and will cross easily with any other beet including chard. As for feeding them to the chickens, throw one in the run whole or better still, let the birds forage over the beet patch during the autumn/winter till there is nothing left.

Incidently, I found out by accident that if the stored roots are left to sprout in a covered container, the blanched shoots produce a gourmet sprouting dish.

http://downtheplot.com/images/2011/Worzel_sprouts.jpg

[Nastarana]

I used to live near a (beet) sugar plant. I knew frugal people who would watch for beets along the road which had fallen from beet trucks. One lady told me she took beets home and roasted them like squash or potatoes.

[TastyofHasty]

Amazing to see this old thread pop up again. :D

Eristic, if you planted those sprouting beets, they would go to seed, since this is their second year, right? And unless you had other second-year beets also going to seed, then there would be nothing to cross with them, right?

Actually, since beets are biennial and most people harvest them in their first year, it would be very unlikely that any other beet would be going to seed nearby, right?

I guess my question is, WHEN would they be pollinated? In the first year, or in the second? And are there male and female beets? okay... google ...
http://www.beeculture.com/content/pollination_handbook/beet.html
Pollination Requirements:

Poole (1937) stated that the beet is an example of a wind-pollinated species that is also insect pollinated to some extent. Shaw (1916) stated that self-incompatibility seemed to be the general rule in beets. Owens (1945) reported that male-sterility existed in sugar beets. Mikitenko (1959) trained bees to collect nectar from beets, which resulted in an increase in seed production of 14.3 percent compared with the control. Stewart (1946) concluded that wind alone is sufficient to transfer the pollen from anthers to stigmas, but unfortunately the conclusion was based on production of plants in the open compared to plants in cages that excluded larger insects. No attention was paid to "larger insects" on the open plants or to small insects in the cages.

Although beets are basically wind pollinated, some benefit may be derived from insect pollination. The lengthy period that the stigma is receptive to pollen doubtless contributes to the chances that windborne pollen will encounter it in time to effect fertilization and the production of seed.

Pollinators:

Wind is doubtless the major pollinating agent of beets. However, Shaw (1914) reported that thrips cross-pollinate some flowers. Treherne (1923) considered syrphids the most prevalent cross-pollinating insects present on beet flowers, but honey bees, solitary bees, and various Hemiptera were also important. Sharma and Sharma (1968) reported that honey bees were "prominent" on sugar beet flowers. Popov (1962) (according to Free 1970*) stated that Halictidae, Megachilidae, and Anthophoridae were most abundant on beet flowers. Mikitenko (1969) and Archimowitsch (1949) reported that bees will visit beets in large numbers for pollen if nothing else is available, and Mikitinko (1969) stated that they may increase yield of beet seeds. The finding of numerous honey bees or wild bees on beet flowers in the United States is unlikely if there is other pollen available in the area.

Pollination Recommendations and Practices:

Although the evidence indicates that pollinating insects may cause some increase in beet seed yields, their value is given no consideration in the usual recommendations for beet seed production. The evidence indicates that they may be beneficial, and for that reason their activity in flowering beet fields should be encouraged.

Well, I'm looking at this bit:
Shaw (1916) stated that self-incompatibility seemed to be the general rule in beets. Owens (1945) reported that male-sterility existed in sugar beets.
"self-incompatibility seemed to be the general rule in beets." ... maybe that explains why when I've left a beet to flower the second year, it doesn't produce viable seed? and that would mean you would need TWO kinds of beets? to polllinate? and so heirloom beets are kind of pointless? ... so how do they come up with heirloom beet seed then if they are self-incompatible? or does that just mean that each individual beet is incompatible with itself?

"male-sterility existed in sugar beets." so that means they do have male and female beets?? and not to count on sugar beets to pollinate themselves? but then how do you get heirloom self-seed-producing sugar beets?

[Eristic]

Well, I don't know much about the science stuff but I save my own seed from all my various beet plants.

Yes, they seed in their second season mostly, although there is always the odd one that runs straight to seed almost as soon as it gets more than 2 leaves. I find that as the seed keeps well for a number of years I set seed of one or two beet each year. (I currently have 3 vars of mangels and 4 beetroot as my stalwart stock to maintain.) If more than one var is seeded in a single year, then its one outside and one in the polytunnel.

They are wind polinated and as far as I know they would self polinate though I usually set a few (3-4 outside, a boxfull under cover) and get good results.

The main reason for storing the beet in buckets with lids is that if left in the ground or loose stored in open boxes they become prime targets for rodents. A bit of compost in the bottom of the buckets stops the roots from dessicating in store.

[bhpigeon2]

Well, I'm looking at this bit:

"self-incompatibility seemed to be the general rule in beets." ... maybe that explains why when I've left a beet to flower the second year, it doesn't produce viable seed? and that would mean you would need TWO kinds of beets? to polllinate? and so heirloom beets are kind of pointless? ... so how do they come up with heirloom beet seed then if they are self-incompatible? or does that just mean that each individual beet is incompatible with itself?

Self-incompatibility means that an individual plant may not be pollinated by its own pollen but only pollen from another plant.

bhp2

[TastyofHasty]

Thank you, bhpigeon2. So like Eristic does it,

I usually set a few (3-4 outside, a boxfull under cover) and get good results.

would be a good way to save beet seeds, I guess. And Eristic, with your photo of sprouting beets, you have made me think, because beets don't overwinter very well here, "put them in a covered container in a cool spot in the house!"

[bhpigeon2]

Thank you, bhpigeon2. So like Eristic does it,



would be a good way to save beet seeds, I guess. And Eristic, with your photo of sprouting beets, you have made me think, because beets don't overwinter very well here, "put them in a covered container in a cool spot in the house!"

You aren't so far north that you can't overwinter some in the ground. Not as is but dig a pit about 2' deep and line it with straw or leaves. (It's called a clamp.) Place the beets on the bottom and pile it with more straw or leaves high until you have a 2' mound. Cover with canvas or plastic to keep water out. In the spring, take the beets out and replant them. They will immediately bolt. You can do that with any of the brassica family as well.

bhp2

[TastyofHasty]

bhpigeon2, you are a fount of knowledge! Thank you.

I have done this with fig cuttings various years and well know, when I dig up the cuttings, they are happy, alive, and sprouting. In fact, seems like the later I dig them up the healthier and happier they have been. This is an excellent idea.

You have to mark the spot you bury them, I've learned, with something that's obvious and not going to move over the winter.

[Eristic]

While on the subject of burying roots for winter storage can I say that although it can and does work, there are issues. No modern farmer uses clamps because the roots are safer stored in sheds. From a domestic point of view, you are bound to want some roots during the worst of the winter weather and I put it to you that plastic buckets with lids are a better bet.

For any of you with radical aversions to the use of plastic, may I point out that all my buckets are second-hand and therefore recycled.

Anyway, back to worzels. I do not have any set up for seed at the moment but I do have one batch of Bulls Blood Beetroot set up in the polytunnel as todays picture shows.

http://downtheplot.com/images/2011/Bulls-Blood_Beet_for_seed.jpg

[bhpigeon2]

Another method I use is a 28-gallon Rubbermaid container which is set in the ground and filled with dry sawdust. I've got carrots and yellow cylindra beets in it this winter. Large bag of leaves is resting over the lid and all nice and cozy. My clamp currently has yellow collard plants and leeks. Collards are for planting back for seed while the leeks are for cooking. All under at least a foot of leaves held in place by an old storm window.

bhp2

[Imp]

Another method I use is a 28-gallon Rubbermaid container which is set in the ground and filled with dry sawdust. I've got carrots and yellow cylindra beets in it this winter. Large bag of leaves is resting over the lid and all nice and cozy. My clamp currently has yellow collard plants and leeks. Collards are for planting back for seed while the leeks are for cooking. All under at least a foot of leaves held in place by an old storm window.

bhp2

Would those collards be the ones that stay yellowish,maybe called morris heading collards??

My husband recalls some yellow sot of heading type collards from when he was a kid and I have been trying to find them since.

I found a reference to some in the Carolinas, but never got an answer to emails or a letter about them, darn it.

[TastyofHasty]

If you have a rubbermaid container that's cracked, or otherwise sprung a leak or two here and there, would those work buried underground?

[bhpigeon2]

Would those collards be the ones that stay yellowish,maybe called morris heading collards??

My husband recalls some yellow sot of heading type collards from when he was a kid and I have been trying to find them since.

I found a reference to some in the Carolinas, but never got an answer to emails or a letter about them, darn it.

These are the yellow cabbage collards from the Collard Shack in Ayden, NC. No mail or Internet sales, only over the counter. And they are not really yellow but a yellowish-green. Collected about 3 ounces of seed last spring from 3 plants. No idea what I'm going to do with it all since only a few local friends enjoy collards and then happy with only a half dozen plants.

If you have a rubbermaid container that's cracked, or otherwise sprung a leak or two here and there, would those work buried underground?

Mine didn't have any holes until I made 6 of them before burying it. Drainage is needed in case something rots or water manages to somehow get in.

bhp2

[BONSAI_OUTLAW]

WOW.... This thread has been brought back to life several times now. Tasty, do you still grow mangels? If so what kind do you grow?

[bhpigeon2]

I'm hoping to grow some Golden Tankard mangels this year if all goes well. It's one that is no longer available anywhere. A friend bought some seed in 1997 and just recently found the leftovers. She tested the germination of some and many sprouted. I'll be entrusted to grow some out next year and then get fresh seed for the following year.

bhp2

[BONSAI_OUTLAW]

That is awesome bh.

[TastyofHasty]

WOW.... This thread has been brought back to life several times now. Tasty, do you still grow mangels? If so what kind do you grow?

I've had the worst "luck" (though I'm afraid it's just something lacking in the soil) with beets the past few years; I've just given up on 'em.

[Eristic]

Just to keep the thread hot here's a picture of this years mangel and beetroot store.

http://downtheplot.com/images/2011/Mangels_beetroot_store.jpg

While the weather remains mild they will continue to produce green tops outside under shelter but remain portable should I feel the need to bring them indoors.

[BONSAI_OUTLAW]

Love the picture E. Are those the Bull's Blood you showed us earier in the thread? Do you buy new seed each year or do you let these go to seed?

[Eristic]

Yes they are Bulls blood and Detroit beetroot but not the same ones as these are this years harvest. Yes I do save my own seed whenever possible but I can only do one variety per year normally unless I sacrifice polytunnel space. The worzels are mostly Giant Red and a white one (French for Giant White?). Orange ones have already been eaten. (They really help to make the spuds last).

[BONSAI_OUTLAW]

I am going to be growing the http://rareseeds.com/mammoth-red-mangel-beet.html Is the same as your giant red? Since you grow several different types, which one is your fav? I plan on using them for feed for my animals in winter, but if they taste good I might have to eat some too. How do you cook yours?

[Eristic]

Yes, I made a mistake, The Giant Red should have been Mammoth Red. (I was up way past bedtime). Tastewise, there is nothing between them but the yellow varieties seem to mature faster hence get eaten first. For cooking, I simply wash, peel, then dice up in a similar way to swede and boil till tender. Good for bulking up a stew. If brought into a warm dark situation the tops regrow and produce nice tender shoots that can be eaten raw.

Regarding animal feed, bigger is better and there are a lot of calories in one of those roots. Livestock will not care about the colour.

One of the reasons for me first growing them was to experiment with wine and ethanol production but I've been far too busy at work.

[TastyofHasty]

Beet wine? :confused: Well, I made parsnip wine and it was/is really good.

I am thinking about trying beets again, somebody mentioned they need some boron in the soil? and magnesium? ... boron can be had from the laundry additive, Borax? How would you add it to the soil, anybody? Just scatter the powder out there where you want beets? How much?

And magnesium is in Epsom salts ...

I just know somebody is going to say get a soil test, is there a soil test that checks for boron and how much $$ is it? ... not that I'm likely to do it.

I had very nice beets years back when I was just starting the garden. Now, they don't even germinate, or only grow about an inch then disappear.

[bhpigeon2]

I had very nice beets years back when I was just starting the garden. Now, they don't even germinate, or only grow about an inch then disappear.

Growing to an inch and disappearing generally means that a hatch of flea beetles has occurred and everything was eaten in virtually one day. Either plant the beets as early as possible to stay ahead of the beetles or wait until after they have completed their cycle.

bhp2

[Eristic]

Beet wine?

TastyofHasty: I don't think you realise the sugar content of these beets. These are a very close relative of the sugar beet of commerce and a worzel should have a sugar content somewhere in the region of 12% + and in theory should make a potent brew without addition of extra sugar. All theory at the moment but forms a basis for some experimentation when time permits.

On a general note, while we now lovingly refer to these as fodder beet they were originally introduced as a human food crop. Smart farmers of the time soon realised that they could keep their cow in milk throughout the winter by feeding them the worzels which could be grown on a fraction of the amount of land required for hay.

Milk, cream and butter vs. beet. The cow won.

[TastyofHasty]

I don't have a cow, so if I grow mangel wurzels (I love that name for some reason) they will be for human consumption. Unless my three chickens might eat one raw.

No, I didn't realize the sugar content of mangel wurzels was up at 12%! Wow. I was more wondering about what beet wine would taste like.

[beavertrapper]

I just bough a pound of mangle seed. How deep do I plant them and how far apart?

[beavertrapper]

Bump

[Eristic]

I recommend sowing between 1/4" - 1/2" deep depending on soil type. As for spacing, this will vary according to whether you want lots of small beet or fewer but much heavier roots. For optimum yield a fimal spacing of 18" centres should work fine, but 18" x 24" or even 24" square may produce giants if the land is heavily manured.

[BONSAI_OUTLAW]

Thank you Eristic. I too was wondering what the spacing would be to grow giants. Do you find that you can get a giants the first year on heavily manured land or does it take several years?

[Eristic]

I'm sorry but I do not have the space to try really large spacings and although manure is free there is still the logistics of hauling and storing so it has to be targeted where need is greatest.

As an aside: a few years ago I stumbled apon an article via Google Books about mangels. It was basically the equivalent of this forum about 200 years ago using the medium of a weekly farming newspaper. The debate raged on for the best part of 20 years with arguments over spacing and timings, types of manure, manure is good, manure is bad etc. If you can find the article it is worth a read just for the amusement factor, and for fitting avatars from Idig to the players. Anyway, heavy manure and large spacings coupled with deep digging appeared to win in the end. Win: But at what price? The farmers getting the highest tonnage per acre were going to extrodinary lengths to outdo their opposition.

The preparation started with a large number of loads of cattle manure per acre spread over the land before ploughing in to depths of 16 inches or more. This operation was then repeated and re-ploughed to 12 inches depth all with lots of manpower, and carthorses in trios. Results ended up in the region of 80 - 90 tons per acre of bragging rights. 200 years ago manure would have cost the farmer a similar amout to the wage bill, pretty close to zero.

[BONSAI_OUTLAW]

Eristic, I sure wish you could recall more info about that article. I would love to read it.


I first heard about them in "Book Of The Farm" by Stevens.

[idigbeets]

Anyone have some good links or suggestions on where to buy seed? Johnny's is far too overpriced to seed an acre with....

[IndianCreek]

I grew mangels in 2010, plan to again in 2012. I use a no till raised bed method. Because we do it all manually and its just my daughter and I . Basically we clean the horse stalls, dump the manure right on top of the sod. Rake it so the top is even. We make the depth about 12-16 inches. Plant the seed and thats it. We had exellent results. They are big. We chopped them by hand and feed them to the horses. Some liked them better than others. The leaves (tops) looked like rhubarb (people asked if thats what it was). Basically we found them a very easy, no maintenence crop.

[BONSAI_OUTLAW]

When did you sow your seeds IndianCreek?

[IndianCreek]

2 days after memorial day

[BONSAI_OUTLAW]

Thank you IndianCreek. I saw on youtube where Ironhead41 postulated that one should sow it as a fall crop. I had heard otherwise however, and you confirmed what I had heard before viewing this particular video.