Anti-environmentalism:

[HillsideDigger]

On the internet, can be found numerous sites that downplay the effects humans are having on this world.

Is it really so simple as portrayed by some, that the status quo of ever expanding frontier mentality (clearing and engineering more land with more machines and more chemicals) can and should be continued until their is nothing left of the natural biological systems in the world?

http://www.discerningtoday.org/store/liberty_or_sustainable_developme.htm

Another good one:

http://www.eco.freedom.org/

Is it really a choice between Freedom or a clean, healthful world?

[Lavandula Girl]

I really think that this is an attitude that we have been bred to have. If you go back through history, the successful dynasties are the take-all dynasties, whether they be Asian, Africa, Aboriginal, European, or now American. The enviromental issue just masks the selfishness that is inherently there. Now, I'm not saying that every single person is like this, I'm saying that as race we have evolved into the mindset that selfishness in ourselves is righteous, and in others must be quashed. Our religions reflect this, our politics reflect this, and these issues reflect this. Look at the other threads in this section of the forums. Whenever we get into a question of rights, the most vociferous people are the ones who feel that something of theirs will have to be sacrificed... be it a tangible item, or a way of life that they either have or aspire to.

[zebraman]

Hey LavG;This is Laughable;Isn't it You who Runs to the Moderator and whines until they lock down every thread that isn't going the way that you demand?Which makes you Really Selfish!-

[Cliff Timmons]

I think it's all a balancing act.
Anything we do on theis earth that God gave us to live on, is going to leave a mark. We just need to decided what is an acceptable mark and what isn't.

I don't think animals have rights. BUT I do think God gave us dominion over the animals which not only means rule over, but we have to responsibility to take care of them as well. Conservation. I don't think an insect larve should cause my land to be shut down or even taken.

I don't believe in placing an animal's life over a human's life. It shouldn't even be a question. However, I don't believe in most animal testing as it really tells us nothing of how a human will react to any given chemical.

So, I'm either blanced or completely nuts. <grin>

[boston]

makes sense to me cliff. There is a difference between using animals and the environment and abusing it.

and with animals testing they give a rat thousands of times more of something than a humuan would be exposed to in their entire life. How can they determine anything with doing that.

[johno]

Z, I see your point, but it seems to backup LG's argument. This is in fact sound evolutionary theory, but it is not popular to talk about such issues in human evolution because they generally smack of or lead to discussions that sound like racism. In line with LG's wording, we are technically classified as all the same race (homo sapiens sapiens,) but as this is not the common understanding of the word (race) these thoughts lead to asking (for example) if certain groups of people who live in a state of continual warfare are being bred for violence. Of course they are, but that is no doubt viewed as an inflammatory or racist statement by the groups in question. This could go on and on, but the point is that if a group of people survives by the rape of the natural world, they pass on anscestors with the same propensity. When our numbers as a race were few, this was standard operating procedure for eons, as we were hunter-gatherers for most of mans evolution. Take all the food; move on to the next source... The problem now is that our numbers are great and the food (or energy...) source is finite. Of course we are bred to be a selfish animal, that's survival of the fittest. What we have to do as a race now is recognize that this breeding no longer applies to our environment as it used to, at least not in third world countries today, or in developed nations for much longer.

Just my two cents worth...

[Lavandula Girl]

What we have to do as a race now is recognize that this breeding no longer applies to our environment as it used to, at least not in third world countries today, or in developed nations for much longer.


Which is exactly the problem, right? No matter what our thinking may be, we still fall back to what benefits us in the now, for the most part. Again, I'm not lumping each individual into this category, but I'm saying that when something that is environmentally (or morally) correct, we as a race are willing to follow that path for only as far as it is convenient. When faced with inconvenience, we often cave. This is why you see people driving to the organic farm stand in a Hummer! It's why the same person who will only buy free range organic chicken puts diazinon on his lawn when the crane flies are a nuisance. Until people are able to overcome the disconnect between what is good for the environment and what is good for them, there won't be major change. Our sense of entitlement is that deeply ingrained.

As to my own selfishness, I am perfectly willing to own closing a thread I started, Zebraman, because it didn't serve my needs. What you should know is that I referred only to your post, and not to you as an individual, when I asked for it to be shut down. I received several PMs in reply, though, stating that before I said anything, the post was already going to be edited, due to other complaints. It is the only post of yours or anyone else's that I have questioned. I continue to wonder why you need to harp on it. Move on, man, life's too short.

[zebraman]

Hey What's wrong with Hummers?I am thinking about getting one.And I also like having the Over-Abundance here in the Good Old USA.And if third world countries get the short end of the stick,such is life.Most of you are talking about issues that 99.4% don't even care about.-

[HillsideDigger]

"Agenda 21 is a 300-page, 40-chapter, “soft-law” policy document adopted by the delegates to the United Nations Conference on Environment and Development in Rio de Janeiro in 1992. The document is not legally binding; it is a set of policy recommendations designed to reorganize global society around the principles of environmental protection, social equity, and what is called “sustainable” economic development. At the heart of the concept of sustainable development, is the assumption that government must manage society to ensure that human activity conforms to these principles."

http://www.northcarolinaconservative.com/index.php?

This quote from author Henry Lamb who lives not far from here and whose policies are embraced and heralded by the local business community implies that 'government management' is the only way to achieve sustainablility. I disagree, the key actions and decisions to achieve sustainablilty would best be made by informed individuals with governments only providing research, education, advice and some regulation of choices.

[Cliff Timmons]

How in the round world are we going to stop third world countries from trashing the land?

We can't even stop them from getting the bomb. <grin>

[HillsideDigger]

There is little that we (if you mean Americans) can do outside of our own backyard.

Discussion and exchange of information on these issues is a start, I suppose and like Zebraman said, it seems most people in the US aren't even aware that there is an issue (with loss of biodiversity, unsustainable fossil fuel based food production, overcrowding, climate degradation, etc.).

With leaders such as James Watt (Reagan Cabinet) who alledgedly stated why worry if we cut the last tree because Jesus is coming back soon, an entire segment of the population is relieved of any concern.

[Lavandula Girl]

If we've cut down the last tree, though, is there any question as to Jesus' mood when he does show up? And what about the meek.... when they inherit the earth, won't they become the p****d off? It is proven that we as Americans (our gov't, I mean) lead by example. When we refuse to honor Kyoto, and refuse to explore to any real extent the possibility that there is a future without fossil fuels, we are having an effect whether we like it or not. Honestly, I think there are plenty of Americans who recognize that there's a problem.... they just think it's someone else's. Looking at the links provided by HD at the beginning of the thread, that's pretty apparent.

[werecat]

My daddy has always said that freedom and security are directly linked. The more freedom you have the less security you have. I want the previous mentioned balence. If I could have my dream life, I would have land that I would take care of and then leave for my nieces and nephews to take care of and live from. I would have as much as possible vehicles that would run on alcohol fuel and I would also probably have one big vehicle that might not for longer distance driving, but then I would make sure I checked around locally to see if anyone else wanted to share the ride. I can't control anyone else. All I can do is the best that I can do to take care of what I have and make the best possible uses of what I have.

I am curious though Z. Why a hummer? Is there a need for it or is it just a want it type of thing? No offence is intended, I'm just curious. Both my eco warrior type parents have gass guzzling vans, but they are family vehicles and when they go somewhere then call me, my sister and neighboors and say "were going to go up to so and so, do you need anything? want a ride while were out?" It's also cause they are older and old bones don't do well climbing into little economy cars.

[Cliff Timmons]

I think she just called you old Z. <grin>

[werecat]

I think she just called you old Z. <grin>
Noooooooooo! :"> I just didn't know if he maybe had health issues. My best friend is only 36 and his knees are shot and he has to wear braces on them a good bit of the time.

[johno]

At least she didn't call him sweet!

[Cliff Timmons]

She didn't say sweet, and I saw OLD.

So she is really calling him old and crotchity.

<grin>

[mobi]

[QUOTE=HillsideDigger]There is little that we (if you mean Americans) can do outside of our own backyard.

Discussion and exchange of information on these issues is a start, I suppose and like Zebraman said, it seems most people in the US aren't even aware that there is an issue (with loss of biodiversity, unsustainable fossil fuel based food production, overcrowding, climate degradation, etc.)

I find this thought disturbing.It is hard for me to beleive that a large portion of people are unaware of the changes that are happening on a world wide level.I here the phrase"global warming" used to often .People must be aware on some level some of the causes of this,especially those in highly developed nations.

[zebraman]

Hey Guys;I have No health reasons.I am really active,I still wear the same size pants that I wore in High School (30 in.waist-36" inseam).
Now that Gas is Expensive they are really affordable and they are really Pretty Cars,and they are Fun to drive.You are only here for a little while,why not take advantage while your'e here?My car in the driveway is a Gas Guzzeler from the 1950's.The only problem with the Hummer is that it won't fit in the Garage.-

[boston]

You are only here for a little while,why not take advantage while your'e here?

Nothing against zebramans or anybody else but this is a very common attitude. we all know the saying "Eat Drink and be Merry for tomorrow you may die". I dont think it's that people are not aware. Its that they just want it all. Why do you think personal debt is so high and bankruptys are at an all time high I think too.

[Cliff Timmons]

Well I for one think that people with vehicles with big engines should pay more a month for gas.

Oh wait,...... they do.

OK, It's their business I guess. <grin>

I'd like to have a hybrid but,
I can't afford those things.
I can't haul wood and feed in one.
I can't fit all our bluegrass instruments in one.

[HillsideDigger]

I for one drive a 14mpg Excursion, because I like to tour the country when I can

but being a self-employed at home person, I commute zero miles to get to work each day.

[zebraman]

Hey Guys;In Hollywood Its Eat,Drink and Be Mary!Well at least dress like her.-

[mrtomatoexpres]

himobi your right about global warming a lot of people do not care most of them say it will never be fixed in my life time so what about there kids and grandkids me i do not need a car i take the bus or train i can not afford one anyway i had left knee,ankle surgery it hurts sometimes but that is part of the deal being alive i have to live with it i wish more people watched linktv and freespeachtv they have shows about globalwarming i think tlc had a show about globalwarmingthey showed you a mountain range in montana there was snow on the tops now there is a little left globalwarming and they showed you around the world what is not the same from globalwarming its sad big business and gov. :mad:

[Cliff Timmons]

Hey Guys;In Hollywood Its Eat,Drink and Be Mary!Well at least dress like her.-

That was funny. <grin>


mrtomatoexpres I've tried watching linktv and freespeachtv but it's hard to watch the good programs when when so much of their programming goes against my conservative rightwinged Christian middle America values. <grin>
I'd love to see some of those programs, I just can't go the other stuff to get to it.

Those folks on those channels would have me strung up like a country ham in about 1/2 day.

[HillsideDigger]

Here's a name I found for the anti-environmentlists:

"The cornucopians say that population growth is good, not bad (Julian Simon), or that it will solve itself (Herman Kahn), that shortages are mythical or can be made good by technology and substitution, and generally that we can expect a glorious future."

http://dieoff.org/page45.htm

[johno]

One word: FINITE

[darwinslair]

geez, hilli and cliffie looked the same back then. have not aged a day!