POLL what are your politics?

[JereGettle]

Hey all, we were wondering what your politics are?

[Carolina-Family-Farm]

Open pollinated non hybrid and as close to what God intended as possible for me.

[Lavandula Girl]

I'll weigh in - I don't affiliate with any specific party.... I basically distrust anyone who makes a career out of being a politician. I always vote, but I'm not above writing in a name if I think all the candidates are retarded. (I've voted for my husband as a write in candidate for congress at least twice.) If it were a perfect world, there would be no such thing as lobbyists, and popular vote would actually rule.

[JereGettle]

Wait, you 2! I did not post the poll and you already responded... :)

[Lavandula Girl]

can you add unaffiliated to the choices?

[JereGettle]

Already have Independent ... :) (and that's me)

[redbrick]

I'm thoroughly Indie! I reserve the right to vote for whoever I choose. That being said, I've been thinking of changing my registration to one of the Big Two, just so I can vote in the Primaries.

[Chickens-on-Mars]

I'll also choose independant, small 'i'.
Guilty of being a non-political entity.
And follow my own agendas.

Brian

[bluelacedredhead]

Well considering that most of us are here because of our interest in Gardening, I'm surprised that no one has said that they support the Green Party ;) :rolleyes: :D :p

[redbrick]

Blue, I was waiting to see your political afiliation when it hit me like a brick! Duh! you're not IN the USA, you're in Canada! To be honest, I don't even know what the political parties are called Up North.

BTW, Last night on Larry King, Bush made the statement that He doesn't care what the polls say, 'cause he's the president of America, not Poland! Ok, so it was a Presidential impersonator, not the real deal (ain't that an oxymoron?) but I thought it was a riot!

[CRAZY1]

Well I'm a non-conformist. There are no candidates worth voteing for. All you vote for is who will screw us the least. I'm sorry if I offend any one, its just an opinion.

[Carolina-Family-Farm]

Jere"
I thought it was a question, didn't know I was suppose to wait for a poll to appear ..... lol

My answer still stands, I'll run out and vote as soon as I see Jesus on a ballot, till then I'm content to sit here and tend the garden while the rest of the world battles out the politics.

[Lavandula Girl]

Same here, Jere - didn't realize you were adding to the thread :D If there isn't an unaffiliated choice, I guess I'd say I'm a small 'i' independent, which is not the same as the Independent Party. I do think it's important to vote, though, even if you're casting a ballot sometimes for the lesser of two evils. I tell my students - if you don't vote, don't complain about the results! Since I LOVE to complain, I pretty much have to vote!

[GeorgeSims]

Jere,

Do I understand correctly that, in Missouri, one does not specify a party affiliation when registering to vote? At the polling place, any voter may choose the ballot of any party in the primary elections?

[Sandbar]

Since I LOVE to complain, I pretty much have to vote!LOL ... good one, LG. I'm in the same boat as you are.

I'm a registered Republican and usually (not always) vote that way on national and major state level races. However, if an Independent candidate wages a serious campaign and warrants a thorough look, I have been known to support that candidate.

My problem is that I'm so conservative that I have trouble finding any candidate that I really want to support. I truly want government to focus on national defense and meeting infrastructure needs for the nation and stop trying to micromanage my personal and business life. I'm sick of the heavy tax burdens and ... oh, I had just better shut up now ... :mad:

[bluelacedredhead]

Andy, what George is asking about as far as procedure in MO, is more what it's like up here to vote. We can be members of a political party, but it's not required to vote in an election. And since you've brought up the subject ( and maybe a few others are curious as well) here goes the best I can explain it.


Our main parties are the Liberal Party(Big Business; Gun Control)
Conservative Party(For the Farmer and Small Businessman; Gun Legislation with Moderation)
New Democrats (Left Wing: Used to be Pro Socialism; still to a degree. Platform usually in favour of Programs for Single Parents; Child Care; Low Income)

We don't have the electoral college system that you have in the U.S. I find it confusing? Also Senators here are not elected; they are appointed like Judges.

Other than that, we have Municipal elections every two years; Provincial (state) elections every 4 and Federal every 4. Oh yeah, another difference there. Your federal election for President falls always the same week in November, right? Ours can be called any time within that 4 year period. Most in my lifetime have been late summer, but not always. It's up to the Prime Minister to call the election when he feels it's time.

[Cliff Timmons]

I Missouri we have to declaire one way or the other. I think I'm regestered Republican right now, but I'm not sure.

I am a conservative right-winged Christian who isn't real thrill, "to say the least" with either party right now.Reagan was the last President I was happy with.

I guess I'm just hard to get along with. <grin>

[mrtomatoexpres]

i do not trust any party they promise you this and that then when there in they can not do this and that so i think iam green maybe

[GeorgeSims]

In Louisiana, we declare a party choice upon registration. We have, however, an "open" primary, in which all candidates compete, regardless of party affiliation. If no candidate gets a majority (+50%), the top two candidates, regardless of party, have a runoff. It is quite possible to have two Republicans (or two Democrats) in the runoff. The only occasion when a voter's party affiliation is a factor is in presidential party primaries, or in party elections (electing members of a party's governing body).

I am officially registered as an Independent.

I had understood that Missourians did not declare a party affiliation when they registered. One thing I find strange (in Missouri) is that (according to the "Official Manual of Missouri") many newspapers are listed as either "Democratic", "Republican", or "non-partisan". These are common, daily or weekly papers, and not electioneering publications.

[flowerpower]

I Missouri we have to declaire one way or the other. I think I'm regestered Republican right now, but I'm not sure.

I am a conservative right-winged Christian who isn't real thrill, "to say the least" with either party right now.Reagan was the last President I was happy with.

I guess I'm just hard to get along with. <grin>


Cliff, I think I am a reg. Repub. also. I haven't voted since Reagan was president. lol

[johno]

I'm so flustered I'm foaming at the mouth right now... so I'll try to 'prune' my rant down to the basics...

I have just as many problems with the democratic party as I do with the republican party. I think they are two sides of a coin that needs to be tossed OUT. I vote for the individual, not the party, and I wish everyone else would do the same (I know, wish in one hand...)

I am anti-control in every case except the environment.
I am pro- fiscal responsibility.
I firmly believe in the separation of church and state.
I am somewhat separationist, but also believe in helping those countries that need AND ask for help. However, a global economy is what it is, and the eventual merger of all countries into one group of humanity is inevitable...

Ohh, here comes the rant, I better quit...

[GeorgeSims]

Don't worry, Cliff. They'll let you vote again, if the governor grants you a full pardon!!!

[GreenZone]

Libertarian.

[ihateweeds]

Red Brick - That's too funny! I missed Larry King show -hahaha.

Being in Chicago one is supposed to "vote early and often!" I have to go for being an Independent -being a flower child of the sixties, I've seen enough manure being spread around in Washington.

Now this Obama gut looks VERY interesting....

[zebraman]

Hey Guys;I am a Dyed in the wool Republican.Am I happy with Everything my party has done? No,however I am not interested in throwing the baby out with the bathwater.Democrats=Socialism,and Libertarians= the Mickey Mouse vote.
The only race my vote will matter is in voting Arnold in for another term which I will do.-

[werecat]

I'm so flustered I'm foaming at the mouth right now... so I'll try to 'prune' my rant down to the basics...

I have just as many problems with the democratic party as I do with the republican party. I think they are two sides of a coin that needs to be tossed OUT. I vote for the individual, not the party, and I wish everyone else would do the same (I know, wish in one hand...)

I am anti-control in every case except the environment.
I am pro- fiscal responsibility.
I firmly believe in the separation of church and state.
I am somewhat separationist, but also believe in helping those countries that need AND ask for help. However, a global economy is what it is, and the eventual merger of all countries into one group of humanity is inevitable...

Ohh, here comes the rant, I better quit...

I knew there was a reason I liked you johno! :^)


I think the government needs to stay out of religion and personal beliefs and visa versa.
I think the government needs to stay out of my personal freedoms and has no place in attempting to control the choises I make regarding my life, love, persuit of happiness or what I do with my body.
I think we should only be helping other countries that ask or accept our offer not forcing "help" where it isnt wanted.. If people did that on a individual level they would get beat and no one would talk to them.
I think that public aid is a good thing but handled extremely poorly. In real life no one gets anything for free (except seeds here *wink*). There are too many understaffed agencies t hat need help badly. If people want help, let them work or volunteer somewhere and aid can be based on that.

Believe me, I could rant long and hard on this particular subject but I will limit it to these for the moment. In a very simplistic way of looking at things, I think if everyone simply behaved in a way they would like people to behave with them in kind we wouldnt need any type of government at all. I know it's not going to happen, but it's a lovely dream.

[redbrick]

In a very simplistic way of looking at things, I think if everyone simply behaved in a way they would like people to behave with them in kind we wouldnt need any type of government at all. I know it's not going to happen, but it's a lovely dream.

Why, werecat, you just paraphrased the Golden Rule! "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

I'd also like to take a moment to point out that abortion and gun control are effectively non-issues that both of the Big Two use as smokescreens to dodge real policy issues. Both topics are typically thrown out in the open in order to get the masses arguing over them, while neither party really has any plans to change the status quo.

[JereGettle]

Well said Johno! that's about like I see it too!

[Eric]

In most cases being independant just means you have absolutely no say on who you get to vote for. You can vote for whoever you like no matter what your party but not being heard in primaries is just one reason why its generally the case that both candidates suck.

If you are voting for any party based on moral issues then you are being manipulated. The party doesn't care about who gets them in power, just that they do, and unless your money is helping that then your voice is just background noise.

I'm a bit of a political cynic, but I still vote.

[sunmad strawgirl]

I seem to be almost the opposite of Sandbar - so liberal that it is difficult for me to find people I would actually like to support. Perhaps we are so far to the sides of the spectrum that we'll almost meet on the other side . . . :)
It is very difficult for me, here on the day before the election, not to hate them all, though. Partially becuase I always feel that way but mostly becuase I've been forced to listen to so much complete hogwash for the last several weeks as the politicians court us and spend so very much time saying absolutely nothing meaningful AND getting nothing done (does anyone else feel that politicians are spending almost 50% of their time campaigning for themselves or someone else and another 20% of their time getting ready for campaigns?). It's difficult to believe in all the cacophony that these people are the people that we end up trusting with decisions about life and death and the future of our children. I'll just try, as much as I can, to tune out all the blather and vote as much as possible for those people who I think will, at least a small percentage of the time, work towards the kind of future and country that I want to be a part of. Ha! We'll see how that goes, eh?

[flowerpower]

Freedom of Religion should mean the right to believe or not believe in any deity or "higher power". A good start to the gov't keeping out of religion would be to:

1) Take "In God We Trust'' off the currency. They could put something like "Land of the Free" or "America the Beautiful"
2) Remove the "One Nation Under God" from the Pledge and use the original words
3) Remove the Bible from any of the "swearing in" ceremonies. They could use a nice copy of the Constitution or Declaration of Independence. What will they do if some Athiest becomes president?

There are actually tax-paying American citizens who are not Christian.

[werecat]

Freedom of Religion should mean the right to believe or not believe in any deity or "higher power". A good start to the gov't keeping out of religion would be to:

1) Take "In God We Trust'' off the currency. They could put something like "Land of the Free" or "America the Beautiful"
2) Remove the "One Nation Under God" from the Pledge and use the original words
3) Remove the Bible from any of the "swearing in" ceremonies. They could use a nice copy of the Constitution or Declaration of Independence. What will they do if some Athiest becomes president?

There are actually tax-paying American citizens who are not Christian.Go Flower! :^) I'm right there with you and our numbers are growing faster than any other group too!

[zebraman]

HEY;Why don't "they" just use Michael J.Fox's stem cells?-

[johno]

:confused: Sorry, I read back a few posts and I don't get it. Use his stem cells for what?

[redbrick]

I think for stem cell research. What you don't know is that Fox had launched a campaign commercial in which he pounded the pulpit in favor of stem cell research while shaking violently due to his Parkinson's Disease. Needless to say, all kinds of people were in an uproar over it. Rush Limbaugh even went so far as to say that Fox faked his tremors. Which set off another uproar, of course.

[Carolina-Family-Farm]

Elias is one of my Bible favorites, he felt alone and out numbered in his diligent service to the Lord. The wicked had killed all of the prophets and digged down the altars of the Lord and were looking to kill Elias.
God spoke to Elias and said to him that he had reserved seven thousand men, who had not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Seven thousand men was only a remnant and I'm one thankful puppy to be a part of that remnant of faithful men.

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell:


(but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.)

[werecat]

Elias is one of my Bible favorites, he felt alone and out numbered in his diligent service to the Lord. The wicked had killed all of the prophets and digged down the altars of the Lord and were looking to kill Elias.
God spoke to Elias and said to him that he had reserved seven thousand men, who had not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Seven thousand men was only a remnant and I'm one thankful puppy to be a part of that remnant of faithful men.

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell:


(but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.)

umn....*raises hand* Question?

How does this indicate your political stance?

[Carolina-Family-Farm]

Simple Answer

Me and my house will serve the Lord, the rest of the world can serve the republicans, democrats, independents (or what ever makes em happy)

I serve the king!


How does this statement indicate yours?

1) Take "In God We Trust'' off the currency. They could put something like "Land of the Free" or "America the Beautiful"
2) Remove the "One Nation Under God" from the Pledge and use the original words
3) Remove the Bible from any of the "swearing in" ceremonies. They could use a nice copy of the Constitution or Declaration of Independence. What will they do if some Athiest becomes president?

There are actually tax-paying American citizens who are not Christian.

[werecat]

Simple Answer

Me and my house will serve the Lord, the rest of the world can serve the republicans, democrats, independents (or what ever makes em happy)

I serve the king!


How does this statement indicate yours?
Actually, that is a quote from flowerpower that appeared in my reply (although I agree with her viewpoint). My post where I listed my views appears a little above that. This is the quote:
I knew there was a reason I liked you johno! :^)


I think the government needs to stay out of religion and personal beliefs and visa versa.
I think the government needs to stay out of my personal freedoms and has no place in attempting to control the choises I make regarding my life, love, persuit of happiness or what I do with my body.
I think we should only be helping other countries that ask or accept our offer not forcing "help" where it isnt wanted.. If people did that on a individual level they would get beat and no one would talk to them.
I think that public aid is a good thing but handled extremely poorly. In real life no one gets anything for free (except seeds here *wink*). There are too many understaffed agencies t hat need help badly. If people want help, let them work or volunteer somewhere and aid can be based on that.

Believe me, I could rant long and hard on this particular subject but I will limit it to these for the moment. In a very simplistic way of looking at things, I think if everyone simply behaved in a way they would like people to behave with them in kind we wouldnt need any type of government at all. I know it's not going to happen, but it's a lovely dream.
I selected independent for the poll since that is as close as I could get to me. I am not a member of any specific party and vote for whomever I feel would follow what I feel should be done as is what voting is all about. :^)

[Carolina-Family-Farm]

Yep I knew that was someone else's post and I took it as a mutual view point that you had in common with flowerpower.

I simply agree with the statement made by Elias in the Bible. That statement is a picture of the way I personally feel about politics today.


Actually, that is a quote from flowerpower that appeared in my reply (although I agree with her viewpoint)

[Lavandula Girl]

CFF - May I ask, does that mean you don't vote at all, or that you base your vote on what falls most closely in line with your faith?

[flowerpower]

CFF,My point is that not all of us are Christian. So when it says "In God We Trust" on the currency, that can be offensive to people. Which god would that be anyway? Thor? Zeus? I highly doubt it.

I will stand for the pledge, but I do not say it. Why should I have to say "one nation under god" ? That does not seem like separation of church and state to me. Doesn't the flag represent ALL Americans?

I don't believe the Bible should be used in any public setting. Did the President NOT put his hand on the Good Book at his Inauguration? He used his family Bible if I remember correctly.

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell:


So If I do not serve Jehovah, I am evil? That's pretty narrow-minded. I do not find it "evil" to serve the Biblical god. He's just not my choice of a deity. My gods were in the Flood Zone.

[johno]

Did you know that the mention of God in the pledge and on our currency was not there before the 20th century? It was added in by will of religious groups who had no respect for the separation of church and state.

[Carolina-Family-Farm]

Lavandula Girl’

No maam, I don’t vote at all, republicans and democrats don’t agree on much and seldom is ether side happy about what the other side is doing. In every election you get two choices (The democrat with the most $$$ backing him/her and the republican with the most $$$ backing him/her.
I watch year in and year out as people end up disappointed in their choices, Clinton was a playboy and Bush took us into a needless war over oil. The approval ratings rise and fall faster than a covey of quail.

I have never been disappointed in the King I serve.

(Flowerpower)
Your correct, were not all Christians (nether am I) but some of us seem to get offended rather easily over small things, (what if) I were offended by the US Flag? Should we ban the use of flag in public places so that I’m not offended? I don’t remember any constructional right that you or I have that states we shall not be offended.

No one called you evil and it’s not nice to try to put word into my mouth. (Please re-read Joshua 24:15)
(If it seems evil unto you to serve the Lord)


It’s a simple statement that God made, if you want to serve the gods of the flood zone (get after it) ………… smile

[Lavandula Girl]

Thanks for the answer CFF - I have several friends who don't vote for people, but do vote on issues. What I mean is, they won't cast a vote that puts a person in office, but will cast a vote on things like school or library bonds. Do you avoid those too? If I'm being too nosy, I apologize - I have a lot of contact with HS students, and when they ask about voting, I like to be armed with different points of view in advance...it helps me if I some idea of how people besides myself think. I find that's best, since often my thoughts are out of left field! :D

[Eric]

I were offended by the US Flag? Should we ban the use of flag in public places so that I’m not offended? I don’t remember any constructional right that you or I have that states we shall not be offended.


That analogy doesn't really make any sense, but if that were the case you could garner support for changing the flag, don't use the flag yourself, or move to another country that doesn't have an offensive flag. The flag is really just a symbol, it has no meaning and doesn't need to be respected or hallowed in any way, its not part of the Constitution which is what makes America America.
Separation of church and state *is* part of the Constitution so when the government sponsors monotheistic (and of course theistic) views by using God in the way it has it is violating that ideal. I can't understand how anyone that has been socialised in American schools wouldn't understand the mindset since the history of America's creation is filled with so much religious persecution.


I'd rather my kids not have to say the pledge at all, nevermind the religious connotations.

[Carolina-Family-Farm]

Thanks for the answer CFF - I have several friends who don't vote for people, but do vote on issues. What I mean is, they won't cast a vote that puts a person in office, but will cast a vote on things like school or library bonds. Do you avoid those too? If I'm being too nosy, I apologize - I have a lot of contact with HS students, and when they ask about voting, I like to be armed with different points of view in advance...it helps me if I some idea of how people besides myself think. I find that's best, since often my thoughts are out of left field! :D

Lavandula Girl"

I avoid it all and if you would like an (in depth) answer to all the why's just PM me your email address.


Eric"

The analogy works perfect, there has been a lot of shed blood for that US flag symbol, so that could be a pretty offensive statement to someone. My point is I'm not offended by your views (there yours) and I like the fact that you were honest about it. If I agree or not is not the point I'm trying to make.

If you prefer your children not say a pledge (it's your house and your children), I'm not trying to vote in laws to force your children to say the pledge.

You could always move to a different country that didn't have a pledge, Constitution or the words In God we Trust on the currency.

Separation of church and state is very one sided sack of something smelly, suppose my children want to pray in a public school, am I to tell them they can only talk to God when it's politically correct to keep them from offending an atheist child?

I don't mind other children being atheist if that's what they prefer and it's not a problem for my children if other children are atheist in public places, it doesn't offend me or shake my faith.

So tell me Eric why is it so many people seem to take an offence to a person who has a solid faith in God when no one blows a fuse over much else?

[werecat]

Lavandula Girl"

I avoid it all and if you would like an (in depth) answer to all the why's just PM me your email address.


Eric"

The analogy works perfect, there has been a lot of shed blood for that US flag symbol, so that could be a pretty offensive statement to someone. My point is I'm not offended by your views (there yours) and I like the fact that you were honest about it. If I agree or not is not the point I'm trying to make.

If you prefer your children not say a pledge (it's your house and your children), I'm not trying to vote in laws to force your children to say the pledge.

You could always move to a different country that didn't have a pledge, Constitution or the words In God we Trust on the currency.

Separation of church and state is very one sided sack of something smelly, suppose my children want to pray in a public school, am I to tell them they can only talk to God when it's politically correct to keep them from offending an atheist child?

I don't mind other children being atheist if that's what they prefer and it's not a problem for my children if other children are atheist in public places, it doesn't offend me or shake my faith.

So tell me Eric why is it so many people seem to take an offence to a person who has a solid faith in God when no one blows a fuse over much else?

Unfortunatly, whenever the seperation of church and state are discussed there is potential for hot blood from one side or the other if not both. I am not easily offended myself. Some one has to try pretty hard to get me really bent in most cases. The words on our currency and in our pledge of allegience don't offend me so much as annoy and sadden me. As I understand it our country was founded on the ideal that religion and government had no business being joined in any way. It was done this way to avoid the type of abuse of power that went on in Europe durring the time of the revolution. The thought of personal prayer in schools doesn't bother me, As Lavendulagirl will probably confirm as a teacher, there is plenty of prayer, generally about the time a teacher is passing out a test. Yeah, that's funny, but I mean it seriously. What I don't agree with and will fight against is forced prayer in school. My nieces and nephews are being taught that some people believe one thing while auntie Lisa believes something else. You can learn about both and when you are old enough to choose then you can choose what YOU believe in. They go to after school activities at a local "Christian" type church and will also help me get ready to bless the garden plots we are getting ready to cut and prepare for planting this spring. There is no prayer in the after school activites and they don't participate in my blessing rituals, but they learn about both. If schools wanted to offer a moment of silent reflection that children could use to pray or meditate or whatever, I wouldn't have a problem. When it becomes a forced conventional christian (or anyother specific religion for that matter) prayer, I have a big issue.

As far as the Pledge of Alligence goes, I don't think any child should be making any pledges to our flag or anything else with or without religous statements. Making a pledge is a serious business. Children simply do not understan all that it encompasses.

With regards to swearing in for anything from holding an office to being a witness in a court case, something better needs to be found than using a bible. I was reciently summoned to appear in court as a material witness in a case. As it turned out, I wasn't needed after all and thank The Lady I wasn't. I really wasn't sure how I was going to handle that swearing in part of it all. The Bible doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot to me other than the fact that it holds a lot of meaning to other people. My swearing on it would be about the same as searing in on a telephone book. (No offence to anyone, simply stating a fact.) I didn't want the person being charged to later be able to claim a mistrial because my oath didn't really count, but what else would have been accepted as something to validate my oath?

Whenever a single religion or type of religion is shown to be more acceptable or prefered by the govening body there are problems. Think of it in this way, how would you feel if rather than "in God we trust" appeared on our currency the words "Protected by the Goddes" and a nice 5 pointed star in a circle appeared instead?

[Carolina-Family-Farm]

As I understand it our country was founded on the ideal that religion and government had no business being joined in any way.


Now where did that understand come from?

IN CONGRESS

November 1, 1777

FORASMUCH as it is the indispensable Duty of all Men to adore the superintending Providence of Almighty God; to acknowledge with Gratitude their Obligation to him for benefits received, and to implore such farther Blessings as they stand in Need of; And it having pleased him in his abundant Mercy not only to continue to us the innumerable Bounties of his common Providence, but also to smile upon us in the Prosecution of a just and necessary War, for the Defence and Establishment of our unalienable Rights and Liberties; particularly in that he hath been pleased in so great a Measure to prosper the Means used for the Support of our Troops and to crown our Arms with most signal success:

It is therefore recommended to the legislative or executive powers of these United States, to set apart THURSDAY, the eighteenth Day of December next, for Solemn Thanksgiving and Praise; That with one Heart and one Voice the good People may express the grateful Feelings of their Hearts, and consecrate themselves to the Service of their Divine Benefactor; and that together with their sincere Acknowledgments and Offerings, they may join the penitent Confession of their manifold Sins, whereby they had forfeited every Favour, and their humble and earnest Supplication that it may please GOD, through the Merits of Jesus Christ, mercifully to forgive and blot them out of Remembrance; That it may please him graciously to afford his Blessing on the Governments of these States respectively, and prosper the public Council of the whole; to inspire our Commanders both by Land and Sea, and all under them, with that Wisdom and Fortitude which may render them fit Instruments, under the Providence of Almighty GOD, to secure for these United States the greatest of all human blessings, INDEPENDENCE and PEACE; That it may please him to prosper the Trade and Manufactures of the People and the Labour of the Husbandman, that our Land may yet yield its Increase; To take Schools and Seminaries of Education, so necessary for cultivating the Principles of true Liberty, Virtue and Piety, under his nurturing Hand, and to prosper the Means of Religion for the promotion and enlargement of that Kingdom which consisteth “in Righteousness, Peace and Joy in the Holy Ghost.”

And it is further recommended, that servile Labour, and such Recreation as, though at other Times innocent, may be unbecoming the Purpose of this Appointment, be omitted on so solemn an Occasion.

Extract from the Minutes,

Charles Thomson, Secr.


[This proclamation can be found in: Journals of the American Congress From 1774 to 1788 (Washington: Way and Gideon, 1823), Vol. II, pp. 309-310]

[Carolina-Family-Farm]

This is text excerpted from a national fast declared by the Continental Congress on March 16, 1776:

IN CONGRESS

In times of impending calamity and distress; when the liberties of America are imminently endangered by the secret machinations and open assaults of an insidious and vindictive administration, it becomes the indispensable duty of these hitherto free and happy colonies, with true penitence of heart, and the most reverent devotion, publickly to acknowledge the over ruling providence of God; to confess and deplore our offences against him; and to supplicate his interposition for averting the threatened danger, and prospering our strenuous efforts in the cause of freedom, virtue, and posterity.
. . . Desirous, at the same time, to have people of all ranks and degrees duly impressed with a solemn sense of God's superintending providence, and of their duty, devoutly to rely, in all their lawful enterprizes, on his aid and direction, Do earnestly recommend, that Friday, the Seventeenth day of May next, be observed by the said colonies as a day of humiliation, fasting, and prayer; that we may, with united hearts, confess and bewail our manifold sins and transgressions, and, by a sincere repentance and amendment of life, appease his righteous displeasure, and, through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ, obtain his pardon and forgiveness; humbly imploring his assistance to frustrate the cruel purposes of our unnatural enemies;
. . . that it may please the Lord of Hosts, the God of Armies, to animate our officers and soldiers with invincible fortitude, to guard and protect them in the day of battle, and to crown the continental arms, by sea and land, with victory and success: Earnestly beseeching him to bless our civil rulers, and the representatives of the people, in their several assemblies and conventions; to preserve and strengthen their union, to inspire them with an ardent, disinterested love of their country; to give wisdom and stability to their counsels; and direct them to the most efficacious measures for establishing the rights of America on the most honourable and permanent basis—That he would be graciously pleased to bless all his people in these colonies with health and plenty, and grant that a spirit of incorruptible patriotism, and of pure undefiled religion, may universally prevail; and this continent be speedily restored to the blessings of peace and liberty, and enabled to transmit them inviolate to the latest posterity. And it is recommended to Christians of all denominations, to assemble for public worship, and abstain from servile labour on the said day.


[Source: Journals of the American Congress From 1774 to 1788 (Washington: Way and Gideon, 1823), Vol. I, pp. 286-287]

[werecat]

With regards to the above to posts: I have never seen such or was aware of such exsisted. Still, I find it strange that in all I mentioned in my post you choose to only comment on my understanding that our country was founded on the ideal that religion and government had no business being joined in any way rather than any of the ways that seperation could be maintained or the problems that incorporating them seems to cause.

[Orgarden]

If you prefer your children not say a pledge (it's your house and your children), I'm not trying to vote in laws to force your children to say the pledge.

You could always move to a different country that didn't have a pledge, Constitution or the words In God we Trust on the currency.


In the Pledge, Constitution and Currency, no religion was mentioned in any of these 3 originally. God was added to the Pledge in 1954, to the Currency in 1956 and there is no mention in the Constitution. The fact that God was not mentioned originally "suggests" it's not suppose to be there.


Separation of church and state is very one sided sack of something smelly, suppose my children want to pray in a public school, am I to tell them they can only talk to God when it's politically correct to keep them from offending an atheist child?

I don't mind other children being atheist if that's what they prefer and it's not a problem for my children if other children are atheist in public places, it doesn't offend me or shake my faith.

So tell me Eric why is it so many people seem to take an offence to a person who has a solid faith in God when no one blows a fuse over much else?

CFF, I understand that you want your children to be able to pray whenever and wherever they choose to and I absolutely agree with that (I wouldn't want anyone telling my daughter where and when she could pray) and am sure others opposed to praying in schools feel the same way.

Where I think the disagreements start is when prayer is no longer personal but public. A person's religious beliefs are very personal and is a part of one's whole being but there is a place for those with the same beliefs to congregate and it's called church, not school... or any other public arena.

[Carolina-Family-Farm]

With regards to the above to posts: I have never seen such or was aware of such exsisted. Still, I find it strange that in all I mentioned in my post you choose to only comment on my understanding that our country was founded on the ideal that religion and government had no business being joined in any way rather than any of the ways that seperation could be maintained or the problems that incorporating them seems to cause.

Well buddy I'm a farmer, not a typist - politician or a preacher, I don't type well enough or fast enough to give as many answers as you all would like. I'm pretty sure you all (at the very least see what my politics are)

[Sandbar]

Separation of church and state *is* part of the Constitution ...Um, I'm sorry Eric, but you are completely wrong here.

It is NOT part of the constitution. Many other folk believe this fallacy, also.

The U.S. Constitution forbid the establishment of a particular Christian religion as the government approved religion as England had with the Church of England. Whether you like it or not, this country WAS founded by Christians on Christian principles.

The First Amendment states:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

(see http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.table.html for the full text of the U.S. Constitution)

For a sampling of how our founding fathers felt in regards to "separation of church and state" please visit the following link:

click here: http://www.interviewwithgod.com/patriotic/highband.htm

And, lastly ... OK, kiddies ... Quiz Time! From where did the phrase "separation of church and state" originate?

[Carolina-Family-Farm]

And, lastly ... OK, kiddies ... Quiz Time! From where did the phrase "separation of church and state" originate?



Mark 12: 17: "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's

[Lavandula Girl]

And, lastly ... OK, kiddies ... Quiz Time! From where did the phrase "separation of church and state" originate?
Good old Danbury Baptists! Every kid in Fairfield County CT had to learn this one! It's a quote from a letter from Jefferson to Baptists worried about the Congregational Church getting the governmental nod as official religion.

[Sandbar]

That is correct!

[Lavandula Girl]

Can I go to the head of the class? :D

[Sandbar]

Well, no, LG, because you were already there! ;)

[Lavandula Girl]

Huh - I'm pretty sure I have a college transcript that disagrees with you there, Sandbar! Of course, it's almost 20 years old, so possibly it has added value as a collectible! Hahaha! ;)

[Sandbar]

Huh - I'm pretty sure I have a college transcript that disagrees with you there, Sandbar! Of course, it's almost 20 years old, so possibly it has added value as a collectible! Hahaha! ;)
You forgot to accumulate annual interest on your transcript's GPA. With almost 20 year's of compounding interest, you are probably well past a 4.0 GPA! :cool:

[flowerpower]

(Flowerpower)
Your correct, were not all Christians (nether am I) but some of us seem to get offended rather easily over small things, (what if) I were offended by the US Flag? Should we ban the use of flag in public places so that I’m not offended? I don’t remember any constructional right that you or I have that states we shall not be offended.

No one called you evil and it’s not nice to try to put word into my mouth. (Please re-read Joshua 24:15)
(If it seems evil unto you to serve the Lord)


It’s a simple statement that God made, if you want to serve the gods of the flood zone (get after it) ………… smile

CFF, I was not trying to put words in your mouth. I am sorry if it seemed like that. But try to see that quote from my point of view. It implies that those who serve the Old Ones are "evil". My Bible (yeah I own several) actually said "bad". Either way. One thing I am not is EVIL. Just human.

The Bible does have some good things to say. But it is not the "Word of God" for me. It is just a book of Christian mythology. The same as the Greco-Roman myths. I would not place my hand on a Bible in court or say "so help me God". I would be waiting on my ACLU lawyer.


The First Amendment states:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"


When the gov't enacts a law to put "In God We Trust'' on the currency, that is not an "establishment of religion" ? You gotta be kidding. That's religion being thrust down our throats every day.

[Lavandula Girl]

Even my 11 and 8 year old kids see the grand irony of invoking God's name on filthy lucre! We laugh - we spend the money, of course, but it sure is funny that we're adding His name to the very idol most put before Him every day! They see the same laughability in the pledge. Smart kids! Too bad the kneejerk politicians who added God's name to the currency and the pledge in an effort to show that we were superior to the godless commies didn't have a depth like my kids do :cool: (By the way, if you steal American currency, are you breaking both the 7th andthe 1st Commandments?)

[TastyofHasty]

Independent. When in doubt these days vote Democratic (shuffle 'em around in Congress a bit).

Also severely horrified by "disinformation." And Monsanto & all its ilk. And lots of wondering about stuff like Skull & Bones, Illuminati, Trilateral Commission, Bilderbergs ... World Bank ... globalization ... Jekyll Island ...

[johno]

What's the saying? Something like, "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you?" LOL
I wonder about those groups, too...

[redbrick]

Ah, but are you really paranoid if they really are out to get you?

[mrtomatoexpres]

religion should be in the place you worship not being forced down everybodys throat they should take in god we trust of the money. i hate when i watch football and at the end of the game a lot of the players kneel and pray they should bring it in the lockerroom why do we sing in the 7 th inning of a baseball game god bless america why not the national anthem why not sing it in the 4th quarter of a football game for the americans that got killed at pearl harbor and doring wwll

[flowerpower]

Never mind prof. sports. Both the senate and the house of rep. have chaplains to lead their daily prayer. They and their assistants are paid with American tax dollars. Why aren't the elected officials paying out of their own pocket? If these people want to start their day with a prayer,that's fine. They can get up earlier and attend a service at their house of worship.

[winter_unfazed]

Already have Independent ... :) (and that's me)

I selected "Green" on this poll because I agree with their basic positions, but I would technically be Independent because I don't believe in partisanship and would never join either of the two "beltway" parties.

[TastyofHasty]

Ah, but are you really paranoid if they really are out to get you?

No, that's why it's sort of comforting ... to have people say ... "you're just paranoid." And to say it to myself. :(

[Gregor]

Any one that is Green and Organic, is good 'nough fore me. :eek:

[G. Gordon Gumbo]

Hey, I've been in Florida since the day after elections. Boy, there's a lot of readin' to catch up on.

I've been a Democrat since birth (Texas), raised a Democrat in Mississippi and D.C., elected as a Democrat in Indiana, and remain a Democrat.

That doesn't mean I tow the Democrat party line ... it just means my basic philosophy of politics and government allows I'm not a Republican and don't see the advantage of being a member of the Green, Socialist, Libertarian, or any other party. I have specific life experiences that pretty much dictate my allegiance to the Democrat Party and prevent me changing parties this late in the game.

Independents decide which candidate gets elected in most "at large" countywide, statewide, or nationwide elections. Party affiliation generally decides which candidate gets elected in districts since districts generally are jerimandered to beat ****.

However, an "independent" cannot be elected generally because straight party tickets usually run about 20% of the total vote, so the Republican and Democrat candidates generally start the day off with 10% each of the vote and an independent then has to overcome that initial lead with only 80% of the vote left to divy up three ways.

Lieberman was the exception to that rule this year, and other "independent" candidates probably can win in certain circumstances. But it's rare.

Bottom line in today's politics is that folks expect candidates to be members of one or the other of the two national parties, but also demand that after a candidate is elected, that he or she knuckle down and do the business for which she or he was elected ... no partisan bickering after taking office. And I think you'll see a lot of the 30 or so blue dog Democrats or "conservative" Democrats will determine the direction our party takes over the next two years (thank goodness)!

GGG

[G. Gordon Gumbo]

Simple Answer

Me and my house will serve the Lord, the rest of the world can serve the republicans, democrats, independents (or what ever makes em happy)

I serve the king!

Why is it lately that everyone seems to PUT THEMSELF FIRST in a sentence ...

"Me and my house" ... "Me and my family" ... "Me and them"

Not to mention the fact that if you remove the second subject of the sentence, you're left with "Me will serve the LORD."

Wouldn't it be more polite ... and correct for that matter ... to phrase it "My family and I will serve the LORD?"

First things first ... then politics and opinion ... for cryin' out loud.

GGG

[April]

When the "king" starts paying my mortgage payment...that's when I'll give up being involved in politics. But until such time...........

Actually, the democrats elected this time are, for the most part, liberal, thank Jah. Pro choice, pro stem cell research, pro environment, anti-corruption, et. al.

[Eric]

Um, I'm sorry Eric, but you are completely wrong here.

It is NOT part of the constitution. Many other folk believe this fallacy, also.

The U.S. Constitution forbid the establishment of a particular Christian religion as the government approved religion as England had with the Church of England. Whether you like it or not, this country WAS founded by Christians on Christian principles.

The First Amendment states:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"



Can we agree that the Amendments are amendments to the Constitution and thus part of the Constitution?

Okay, then lets move on.

Any act of govenment that aligns itself with any religion is respecting an establishment of religion. The point was and still is that so doing will immediately begin to oppress those of other religions.

Thus having god on the coinage or in the pledge are respecting religion, and more specifically monthestic religions.

So, are either of those things done because of laws? If so then those laws violate the first amendment.


To illustrate this oppression and to use an example from another poster. Imagine you are in the court room and a witness steps up to the stand and as they are being sworn they make it clear that they do not hold the Bible sacred and swearing on it would be meaningless. What sort of effect would that have on how people see this person's testimony?
If you think anyone at all in our society might look upon this person differently then you understand how the govenment can oppress people mearly by respecting an establishment of religion.

Thus the first amendment properly executed must mean church and state must be separated at all times.

[johno]

Well put, Eric!

[Eric]

Eric"

The analogy works perfect, there has been a lot of shed blood for that US flag symbol, so that could be a pretty offensive statement to someone.


When I joined the military I never once swore to a flag. I swore to serve my country. And by my country I meant the ideal that it sets forth with its current might and the ideals it sets forth with its history and past might. All the people that served before me did the same.


However, using your line of reasoning the bulk of spilled blood that made this country were offensive to you because the flag of their country was different than ours. There was a whole section of the country that were Americans under a completely different flag during the Civil War. And not until Alaska and Hawaii were made part of the union did our current flag even exist.





You could always move to a different country that didn't have a pledge, Constitution or the words In God we Trust on the currency.



I have no problem with the heart of what makes me an America, and that is the belief that the Constitution is a worthy document of governance. The rest of our society creation's are transient. The Constitution is my flag, and now since most of humanity can read do we even need simplistic color based nationalism?





Separation of church and state is very one sided sack of something smelly, suppose my children want to pray in a public school, am I to tell them they can only talk to God when it's politically correct to keep them from offending an atheist child?


This doesn't apply because thats not at issue. Your child can spill sheep's blood and worship satan in the lunchroom for all I care. What I do not want is a public school (and thus government funds receiving) respecting any particular incarnation of religion.
In fact its more a principle to me, because in practice I never uttered the words of the pledge once I realised their meaning, and will have my children do the same.




So tell me Eric why is it so many people seem to take an offence to a person who has a solid faith in God when no one blows a fuse over much else?

I can really only speak for myself, and I am not offended by a person that has a solid faith in God, just as I hope those people are not offended by my solid faith that there aren't any gods. Your religion has gods, mine does not. The offense is that the pledge and other things support your belief and deny mine. That is what offends people.

[Carolina-Family-Farm]

Well hey"
Looks like it's pick on Carolina today so boys and girls lets get after it.

Mr Gumbo.

God said it first and best.
Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

And being that all scripture is inspired by God

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

You'll have to take your wording issues to my Boss.

And Eric"

I'm in no way offended buddy, You and 100 more just like you couldn't offend me for a minute.

Psalm 119:165
Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.



I was making a figure of speech about some people who could be offended with talk about the flag. It seems to me almost anyone anywhere can find something to be offended about at any given moment of any day. It's politically correct thinking in this day and age to dance and stomp your feet while being offended about anything you can dream up.

Personally It doesn't concern me at all if (You reject God) if it makes you happy then get after it. It's your choice to make, I got the opportunity to make my choice and you should surly have yours too.

>>>>What I do not want is a public school (and thus government funds receiving) respecting any particular incarnation of religion.>>>>

lol.....

This is one of them cases where I'm really not concern about what you want (as many of my tax dollars went into that public school system as did yours and my tax dollars are no less important than yours. I personally wish the KJV of the Bible was a required class from first grade till graduation, however I would settle with the free part.

(Government shall not prohibit the (free) exercise thereof)

I'm not asking for public funding of God, JUST EQUAIL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW, if your children can be atheist in public school with public funding what's the issue with my children having faith in God in the same school system with the same funding?

Now Eric"
I understand that you hate God and you hate his laws and anything that supports God and denies your lack of one offends you but you'll have to take it up with a higher power than me cause I don't feel offended and I can't find a need to want help your cause.

I know I'm politically incorrect but thank you GOD I'm enjoying every minute of it.

[flowerpower]

I can really only speak for myself, and I am not offended by a person that has a solid faith in God, just as I hope those people are not offended by my solid faith that there aren't any gods. Your religion has gods, mine does not. The offense is that the pledge and other things support your belief and deny mine. That is what offends people.

CFF, where does Eric say he hates the Christian god? My interpretation was that he doesn't believe in that god or any other one.

[Joan]

I didn't answer the poll because I don't think it has anything to do with gardening.

I wish we could vote some out as easy as voting them in and I am so glad we choose them by votes and not bullets.
Nuf said.

[werecat]

Ok, I really was going to stay out of this. I had made my position clear I felt and didn't feel like kicking a dead horse, but this is just rediculous!

Now Eric"
I understand that you hate God and you hate his laws and anything that supports God and denies your lack of one offends you but you'll have to take it up with a higher power than me cause I don't feel offended and I can't find a need to want help your cause.

Where in all he typed did he say he hated God???! You don't like it when people "put words in your mouth". Don't be putting them in his! Just because he doesn't believe the same as you does not mean he hates your God!

[Carolina-Family-Farm]

John 3:20 reads,

"For every one that doeth evil (hateth the light), neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

What person do you think the light may represents?

John 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Speaking God's Truth is a fast way to make enemies, The world hated Jesus without a cause because He spoke the Truth (John 15:25)

"Galatians 4:16
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

[Lavandula Girl]

Here's a bible quote that is intended to bring us all back to an even keel - hopefully it will remind us we are all entitled to opinions, and that arguing valid points often devolves into needless name calling....

"With three things I am delighted, for they are pleasing to the Lord and to men:
Harmony among brethren, friendship among neighbors, and the mutual love of husband and wife."

Sirach 25:1

[werecat]

John 3:20 reads,

"For every one that doeth evil (hateth the light), neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

What person do you think the light may represents?

John 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Speaking God's Truth is a fast way to make enemies, The world hated Jesus without a cause because He spoke the Truth (John 15:25)

"Galatians 4:16
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
*sigh* just freakin' *sigh* and shakes head.... I wan't one of those bumper stickers that says, "Dear God, Please save me from your followers!"

[Carolina-Family-Farm]

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. – Thomas Jefferson (1781)



If you run out and buy a bumper sticker every time someone disagrees with you, it wont be long until your unable to see out the windows of your car
Carolina Family Farm (2006)

[flowerpower]

Luke 6:37

"Moreover, stop judging, and you will by no means be judged; and stop condemning, and you will be by no means condemned. Keep on releasing and you will be released."


Like Werecat, I am pretty sick of this thread now.

[GreenZone]

Well, I'm not sick of the thread, exactly, but I am weary of the rancorous turn the posts have taken of late. Maybe we could all just agree to keep it civil?

Many folks will refuse to discuss religion or politics, and it's easy to see why. Problem is in a democratic society, we MUST discuss politics. If we don't, then the only "discussion" becomes whatever big money chooses to put on the media. Then we become more like passive absorbers rather than participants. Which, on the whole, is pretty much where we are now, IMHO. (in the US at least. Apologies to Canadian or other non- USA members.)

Anyhow, we shouldn't let politics, or even religion, become divisive in our community. After all, we're here because of what we have in common, which is our love of the land, our gardens, etc etc.

Randel

[Eric]

Now Eric"
I understand that you hate God and you hate his laws and anything that supports God and denies your lack of one offends you but you'll have to take it up with a higher power than me cause I don't feel offended and I can't find a need to want help your cause.



I don't hate god, I am ambivalent towards god and many other such things. I have no strong feelings towards Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. Actually, I believe I like them, including your god. If he keeps half the self-proclaimed christians from murdering each other, me, and my family then I will continue to like your god. That is, your vision of you god. I have no belief myself but I can still acknowledge his power through you.

As to his laws I have a very strong respect for his laws, as they were copied from Hammurabi and his code. Of course many profound thinkers contributed to that code, both in his time and prior. But I don't have to believe in god to respect those laws.

[johno]

...
The bible is in fact a condensed version of much older stories (the old testament, at least) - kind of a Reader's Digest version. The originals were much more informative, and twice as old or more...

[G. Gordon Gumbo]

Why in America of Late do all political dicussions become religious debates?

GGG

[johno]

I know, I know... I just couldn't help jumping in that time...

[Lavandula Girl]

Why in America of Late do all political dicussions become religious debates?

GGG
This is a rhetorical question, right? Personally, I try really hard to keep my religious and my political debates separated, but like Johno, there are times when I can't help myself from jumping right in there!

[G. Gordon Gumbo]

This is a rhetorical question, right? Personally, I try really hard to keep my religious and my political debates separated, but like Johno, there are times when I can't help myself from jumping right in there!

No, Lavandula Girl ... I'm dead serious.

I'm not being critical of you or anyone else "jumpin' right in" to a religious or political debate. I'm tempted to really jump in with both feet to this rediculously devisive debate myself especially with so forceful, yet woefully monochromatically miopic, text extracting, anti-Jesus, psuedo-Christian, right-wing political slogan-slinging being well represented on one side of the issue.

Yet, the subject of the thread was "political orientation" and not "what are your thoughts on religion." So, again, I ask "why in modern day America does every political discussion devolve into a discussion of religion?" It is truly symptomatic of something corrupted about our common purpose, I think.

GGG

[Lavandula Girl]

Well then to answer your question, I think all political debates in the US these days are religious because we have allowed our government to be bullied by people like Pat Robertson and his ilk, and because so many have moved from small churches who were putting their congregations first, to large box non-denoms the size of a Home Depot who think the world should be like them. State sanctioned religious persecution is as old as politics itself, and to separate "Us" from "Them", the US government has been on a campaign of born-again idealism for a good long time. What better to get the vote than to wrap yourself in cocoon of WWJD for the cameras, while doing everything He railed against off screen? It's only when you do something unbelievably stupid, like George Allen just did here in VA, and on camera, that it affects your livelihood. Trust me, if he hadn't managed to let his racism show on film, we'd have been watching him thank Jesus for his victory while red white and blue balloons, probably in the shape of a cross, descended behind him on stage. I'm not saying the other choices were a lot better. Had the race been less tight, I would have written my vote in for 'Macaca'. I'm just saying it's rare that you find a politician these days who doesn't constantly espouse his religious beliefs in an effort to garner votes. Unrealistically, the average US voter is willing to believe these pols when they say they are touched by God all the time, and guided by the teachings of Christ. Just as unrealistically, there are people who refuse to participate in our republic by voting, because they find the choices not godly enough. God (or whatever deity is preferred) gave us brains because we are expected to USE them. If we were expected to act like sheep, we would be ruminants. So, GGG - there's my answer - sorry for the longwinded post!

[Carolina-Family-Farm]

Eric"
With all due respect, there are only 282 rules of law in the Hammurabi code. There are a little over 700 laws in the word of God. So (not) what I would call a copy. Also at the top of the stone is dead giveaway, an engraved picture of "Shamash" the sun god, clearly this was a mixture of humanistic / pagan origin. There are some mild similarities to Old Testament Laws but there not strong parallels.


Mr. Gumbo"
Some time ago I stopped voting because it always came down to two choices, the red death pill or the blue one. Nether side did what was promised to get elected, I left it in God's hands and I've never been more happy, I feel sure our government is a result of our current standing with God, scripture is filled with examples of a stiff neck people who ignored and rejected God only to received an oppressive and sometimes brutal government.
Proverbs 21
1The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

[Carolina-Family-Farm]

Sorry"

I hit the submit button too quick.

Mr Gumbo"

Why should any person of faith want to leave God out of any part of our lives political or not?

[werecat]

*bangs head on desk repeatedly!* I so need to just stay out of this thread!

[Carolina-Family-Farm]

Ok" werecat

I apologize that you've had to bang your noggin over my viewpoints. Agreeably mine are different, but (there mine) and it seems obvious to me that you could reject them if it pleases you.
I'm not trying to force my views on you or anyone else but I see no difference in me stating mine and you stating yours .

At the very least we both get to see a viewpoint from a different set of eyes:)

[werecat]

I'm sorry too. I just don't have a point of reference to work from so I have any sort of a prayer of understanding or following your logic.

[Joan]

Remind me to never get in an argument with any of you. Sometimes it is best to let it die than take all that good positive energy you could use for something better and waste it!.
My mamma told me to never in mixed company talk religion, government and age!
Why was this survey being taken anyway???