I have a question... ("Heirloom" status)

[Lala & GRIM]

Okay, here it is.. at what point does a plant/seed become "heirloom" status? I've seen it written that it's seeds with a story of being fine-tuned down over hundreds of years, but I've also seen seeds that have a story as little as ten or twenty years old. I guess it got me thinking about the term "organic" and how it used to get tossed around a little too easily, back when it was a big buzz-word.
Do you get your seeds (if you're a seed saver, for instance) certified or registered or something? I mean.. I know on some level, every plant that WASN'T hybridized in a lab has occurred naturally or through natural (sometimes even accidental) selection.
I was talking to my husband about wanting to plant heirloom-heavy when I start my garden, and his eyes glazed over. He has no idea what makes a plant "heirloom" any more than I do. I know the value of saved seeds and selecting the best fruits from the hardiest plants, etc.. but this doesn't seem like it's something you can just rubber-stamp. An antique becomes such after it's survived a certain amount of years, etc.. before that it's just Aunt Bertha's old furniture. As much as you love it, there isn't a dealer out there clamoring to buy, even though it has high value in ranges you can't buy; sentimental, familial, etc.
But.. tomatoes, peppers, lettuce... they've all been around in one form or other long before the 'helping' hand of man, so wouldn't ALL breeds that weren't made through laboratory means be the same basic 'heirloom' plants?

[mjc]

Actually, 'heirloom' seeds are not really defined by any group or certifying agency. So it basically means what you want it to mean. Though, generally, heirloom seeds are like antiques...

And almost all vegetables are hybridized. There are very few that are the same as the 'wild' plant. So that isn't enough to classify a seed as heirloom. Also, just because it is an old variety doesn't make it one, either. There are a number of very old varieties of certain vegetables that are still being used in commercial production...they tend to be called 'standard' varieties.

To me, the real difference, is in the number of varieties and what you as a grower can do with them. Open pollinated (those that will breed true to type) veggies are more versatile, a lot of the time, than F1 hybrids (first generation). Yeah, you can get some great traits or disease resistance with hybrids, but many of them are bred for things other than flavor...appearance, shipping ability, uniformity in size, etc. But being a hybrid isn't necessarily a bad thing, nor is it the 'end of the line'. All new varieties start out as F1 hybrids, but in the second generation, is where the fun begins. Selections are made from the plants that are 'true to type' and then those are grown out and so on...

But at what point does it become an 'heirloom'?

For the breeder of that variety...a heck of a lot sooner than for most of the rest of the gardening public.

Personally, I think the word heirloom is way overused when applied to veggies. I think it should be reserved for plants that are truly significant in either their history or that the variety was saved from dying out...

I tend to ignore all the 'heirloom' hoopla and choose the plants for characteristics I want, with a heavy preference towards open pollinated varieties (this way I can saved my own seeds) without having to 'stabilize' the variety, first.

[Lala & GRIM]

Thanks for your well-thought answers, mjc! At first, I was just a little curious, like the age-old question "what happens to the light when you close the refrigerator door", in a passing-moment way. But the more I talk to my aunt about my grandfather and HIS tomatoes, the more I wonder. Like.. if someone buys "Big Boy" seeds and seed-saves through several generations, maybe growing other breeds alongside, do those seeds fall under the "Big Boy" umbrella, or have they become something else, either through machinations (cross-pollination, etc) or enviornment (genes for toughening up against hard winds, genes for deeper root systems to hunt for elusive water, etc)?

I do want to make clear, though, and meant to earlier.. I don't intend my questions to be seen as a scoffing or arguing against the idea that some seeds are heirloom and others aren't. GRIM got up, so I had a moment to talk to Hubs about this while we fed her, and he suggested it might read that way. I guess what I'm saying is.. I'm looking for information or parameters or personal beliefs about it, not turning my nose up (or is that "looking down my nose"?) at it. lol
We had an old joke in our family that when my grandpa passed, no one would care about his property or his money, that everyone would bicker over his seeds. Add a love of trivia to an early life encouragement about gardening, and you get me - someone who pores over EVERYTHING and asks a million questions. heheehee

[American_Gardener]

Okay, here it is.. at what point does a plant/seed become "heirloom" status? I've seen it written that it's seeds with a story of being fine-tuned down over hundreds of years, but I've also seen seeds that have a story as little as ten or twenty years old. I guess it got me thinking about the term "organic" and how it used to get tossed around a little too easily, back when it was a big buzz-word.
Do you get your seeds (if you're a seed saver, for instance) certified or registered or something? I mean.. I know on some level, every plant that WASN'T hybridized in a lab has occurred naturally or through natural (sometimes even accidental) selection.
I was talking to my husband about wanting to plant heirloom-heavy when I start my garden, and his eyes glazed over. He has no idea what makes a plant "heirloom" any more than I do. I know the value of saved seeds and selecting the best fruits from the hardiest plants, etc.. but this doesn't seem like it's something you can just rubber-stamp. An antique becomes such after it's survived a certain amount of years, etc.. before that it's just Aunt Bertha's old furniture. As much as you love it, there isn't a dealer out there clamoring to buy, even though it has high value in ranges you can't buy; sentimental, familial, etc.
But.. tomatoes, peppers, lettuce... they've all been around in one form or other long before the 'helping' hand of man, so wouldn't ALL breeds that weren't made through laboratory means be the same basic 'heirloom' plants?

Lala.. you go straight for the tough questions i see. That is one word that has alot of debate about it. Seems there are no set parameters for heirlooms. Some as you say will argue that a variety has to have a story... others will say it has to be a certain number of years old. One thing they all have in common is that they are open pollinated. I tend to go with the pre-1950's definition myself.. but i love the storys behind some of the varieties. Alot of times the storys are just made up to sell something.. but there are some with true stories and histories behind them. Then you'll see alot of times there will be people using different tags just to avoid the controversy. They call em heritage, vintage, antique, and other names i can't recall right now. It's all a grey area since none of those titles have any more meaning than heirloom does in the seed world. There are some people who call the old hybrids created in the 50's and since a heritage variety. And there are the varieties that Tom Wagner created which alot of people call heirlooms.. or "created heirlooms" even though he created those only 20-30 years ago.

As for being a hybrid.. every variety starts out as a cross or a mutation. IMO they're all the result of man's tinkering. You wouldn't of liked a wild tomato. Or what you can define as a landrace. Now those would have a definiton. They're wild or natually occuring so to say.

Me i don't care about titles.. i go with open pollinated.. now that everyone an understand.

Now in the interest of keeping your family from bickering over grandpas seeds when he passes.. Just send all those seeds to me. That way you won't have to fight.

So, have fun with that can of worms...

[VBLACK]

I almost forgot what I was going to say after reading all of that! Well, I have to say this is the first yr for planting heirloom tomatoes and when I first started out I had NO idea there were sooo many to choose from. I figured in my head probably 10-20 to choose from. LOL! I thought how many antiques could there be out there.

[Emerald]

Lala and Grim~ I also am a "latch on to something and research it to death" kinda person too- And was quite flabbergasted by the fact that there were no cut and dry answers to the Heirloom question. I just state to my family that most of my plants are Open Pollinated(meaning that I can save seed from year to year and get the same plants[with protections from crossbreeding]) and that some have been around so long that they are called Heirloom, or that they provenance to state that they were handed from generation to generation causing them to be considered Heirloom. My Mom will never get it, :( bless her heart, But I still love her!

I would consider the Cherokee Trail of Tears to be an Heirloom due to the fact that it has been so documented.
And did you know that the Apple 'Red Delicious' is considered an Antique- it has been around for over 200 years (well that is what the apple guy on tv said):eek: big news to me, I was thinking that it was a newer type.

[Lala & GRIM]

snipped}...They call em heritage, vintage, antique, and other names i can't recall right now.

snipped}...You wouldn't of liked a wild tomato. Or what you can define as a landrace. Now those would have a definiton. They're wild or natually occuring so to say.

snipped}...Now in the interest of keeping your family from bickering over grandpas seeds when he passes.. Just send all those seeds to me. That way you won't have to fight.

1. HERITAGE! Oh, I LIKE that one! Since the seeds in question would be family-passed, etc!

2. Now you've got me curious.. what does a wild tomato taste like? :eek:

3. heeheehee. So selfless of you! He passed a couple/few years back, in his little 'In-Law' cottage behind my mom's house, with ducks in his yard (shh, don't tell..) and a big white Great Pyr lady curled at his feet, looking heartbroken. Before he went, we dropped out of consciousness, we all got to see him - even a son he didn't know he had - and he got to know that I was living (at the time) in his little house by the river, taking care of it and fixing it back up.
My aunt is taking care of the little house now, and has "custody" of all the seeds. LOL But I talked to her last night, half expecting that after all this time, his wouldn't have anything left to them to germinate. She gleefully reported that his 'mater and grape seeds produced and are running so wild that all the deer, coons, possums, and assorted other creatures are barely making a dent!
...so I told her I'm planning on sneaking some of his seeds out next year. lol She said she won't tell anyone.

I almost forgot what I was going to say after reading all of that! Well, I have to say this is the first yr for planting heirloom tomatoes and when I first started out I had NO idea there were sooo many to choose from. I figured in my head probably 10-20 to choose from. LOL! I thought how many antiques could there be out there.

OH MY GOD! I KNOW! I remember when I first heard about heirlooms and purple/red/yellow carrots, purple potatoes, and stripey-rippled tomatoes, I thought there couldn't POSSIBLY be more than, say, fifty varieties to choose from!
Have you seen how many varieties mint alone comes in?! -faints- (I do realize those aren't heirloom, but my oh my.. the options available to a modern yardfarmer are astounding!)
I remember when I'd go to the nursery looking for A cherry tomato and A beefsteak and A pepper! Now.. I'm spoilt for choice! LOL

snipped}...I also am a "latch on to something and research it to death" kinda person too- And was quite flabbergasted by the fact that there were no cut and dry answers to the Heirloom question.
snipped}...My Mom will never get it, bless her heart, But I still love her!

I would consider the Cherokee Trail of Tears to be an Heirloom due to the fact that it has been so documented.
And did you know that the Apple 'Red Delicious' is considered an Antique- it has been around for over 200 years (well that is what the apple guy on tv said) big news to me, I was thinking that it was a newer type.

I can definitely see Trail of Tears and Red Delicious being 'certified' Heirlooms! If I'm not mistaken.. it was Red Delicious that Johnny Appleseed is famed for having scattered? Not sure, though.
My husband HATES it when I get a new hobby, activity, or topic.. lol I talk his ear off with my trivia for weeeeeeks! LOL

[carolyn137]

The only fruit that I know of where there's been an attempt to define what an heirloom is, is with tomatoes.

And in a certain book that a certian person I know wrote there were four kinds of tomatoes discussed:

Family
Commercial
Mystery
Created

And different folks go on and on about possible definitions and there never will be agreement. The first definition made many years ago says that heirloom tomatoes are those that existed before about 1940 b'c hybrids became availabe shortly after that. Most folks agree that the same definition would obtain for both Family and Commercial heirlooms, but some want there to be an extra caveat that only those varieties passed down from generation to generation qualify as is implied with Family heirlooms.

Then you've got the folks who say a variety has to have been grown for 50 years. So today it's not an heirloom and tomorrow it can be.

For the mystery group above some say that since the female parent is always known in an accidental cross that if the female prent is an heirloom then any selections that come out of that mystery group from the initial F1 hybrid is an heirloom.

Then you've got the created group and someone like Tom Wagner who deliberately bred Green Grape, Green Zebra, says they are heirlooms as well b'c he feels that anything treasued is an heirloom.

So that's the big picture and I was 70 last Friday and I can't tell you how many times this subject of a definition of heirloom, Heritage call it what you will, comes up and I've participated in most of them.

But I'm not going to say too much more about the above.

I will say that I know of no other fruit or vegetable or bramble or fruit tree or whatever, where anyone has tried to define what is and what isn't an heirloom.

Heirloom has become a catchy PR word for many, aside from other merits of particular varieties.

Carolyn

[mjc]

And in a certain book that a certian person I know wrote there were four kinds of tomatoes discussed:

Family
Commercial
Mystery
Created


Carolyn

And would that person be looking back at you if you gazed into a mirror? ;)

[carolyn137]

And would that person be looking back at you if you gazed into a mirror? ;)

Yes that person would be looking back at me if I gazed into a mirror, but that person doesn't even like what she sees in a mirror these days.:D

Carolyn