Jesse Jackson: War Supporters Must Face the Music

[JereGettle]

Jesse Jackson: War Supporters Must Face the Music

By Jesse Jackson

Chicago Sun Times, November 21, 2006

When American families gather to give thanks this week, all of us should say a prayer for the young men and women putting their lives at risk in Iraq and Afghanistan and serving in Bosnia and hundreds of other bases across the world. They are of all races and creeds. Some come from proud military families with generations of service. Some are new Americans, whose families have only recently come to this country. In Iraq and Afghanistan, their duty is hazardous and difficult. They deserve our thanks and respect.

They have served with courage and honor, but have been deeply misled by their leaders. They are stuck in a catastrophic occupation in Iraq. Even the political generals, like Gen. John Abizaid, who have learned to trim their views to fit the White House's needs, now say we have only ''four to six months'' before the civil war already under way spins out of control. More objective analysts say it is already out of control, with death squads murdering and kidnapping hundreds each day, ethnic cleansing taking place from the Kurdish region in the north to the Shiite areas of the south, and Baghdad a bloody gangland, with private militias splitting into rival tongs.

In the midst of this disaster, its architects are abandoning ship. The very neoconservative ideologues who lobbied for this war of choice even before Bush came to office, who wanted to invade Iraq even before the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, are bailing out. These are the zealots who eagerly promoted exiles like Ahmed Chalabi to propagate lies about Saddam Hussein's nuclear weapons programs. These are the pundits who filled the op-ed pages and radio and TV shows with lies about Hussein's connections with al-Qaida. They were so intent on launching this war that they were prepared to prey on American fears and mislead the country into war. It would be, as Kenneth Adelman said, a ''cakewalk.'' We would be greeted as liberators. Democracy would break out in what they painted as a secular Iraq, then sweep the region.

Now they rush to disavow any responsibility. Adelman is shocked to see that ''there are lots of lives that are lost.'' He now blames the leaders of the administration that he once adored: ''This didn't have to be managed this bad. It's just awful.'' Richard Perle, a leader of the Chalabi lobby, now says that he didn't realize the invasion would lead to an occupation. The occupation, he says, ''was a foolish thing to do.'' He apparently thought the troops could just overthrow a dictator and democracy would follow as dawn follows night. It's a problem of execution, according to Joshua Muravchik, the neocon publicist, who lays the blame on Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. Besides, he now writes, few neocons actually served in the Bush administration, and our ''woes in Iraq'' may be ''traced to the conduct of the war rather than the decision to undertake it.''

Now the American people have begun to understand the scope of the fiasco. They went to the polls to demand a change in course in Iraq. Bush dismissed Rumsfeld, leader of the neocons, and brought in the pros -- James Baker, Robert Gates -- from his father's administration. They, with the new Democratic leadership in the Congress, will have the impossible task of trying to extricate America, with as little damage as possible, from the mess the neocons got us into.

So the neocons are positioning themselves to blame the mess on those left to clean it up. Soon they will be filling the op-ed pages with cries of being betrayed, and with calls for a new military adventure, packaged once more with deceptions and distortions. America will have squandered priceless lives and, in the end, over one trillion dollars on their folly. But the neocons will learn nothing. They will lose nothing. The only question is whether the rest of us will know better the next time.

Our soldiers are still at risk. Many believe in their cause. Many understand the situation is out of control. They follow their orders; they put their lives on the line. They deserve our deepest thanks for their heroism. To honor them, we must not fail to hold accountable those that misled them and us into this catastrophe.

[TastyofHasty]

Yep.

[D'Butterfly]

I hope that people don't forget those who got us here and those who never wanted us to be there in the first place. A memo was leaked that has Rummy mulling over a change just before he resigned. Steven Hadley is the only one I've heard complain about it.
Diedra

[Cliff Timmons]

OK, what the heck,... I'll be the whipping boy. <grin>

Jesse Jackson is an idiot and has never worked a day in his life.
Not only that but he is way off base on this one.

I realize that he has sooo much military experance and I shouldn't doubt this wacko,.... but This old Dog-Faced Soldier has to stand up and disagree.

God bless the President, and may God bless America,...... again.

OK, fix bayonets and attack me. <grin>

[JereGettle]

Free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack each other. Free nations don't develop weapons of mass destruction.
George W. Bush

America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy.
John Quincy Adams

We Americans have no commission from God to police the world.
Benjamin Harrison

This President is going to lead us out of this recovery.
Dan Quayle

It is unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or anyone else. -Theodore Roosevelt

Liberty and democracy become unholy when their hands are dyed red with innocent blood. Mahatma Gandhi

[Cliff Timmons]

Free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack each other. Free nations don't develop weapons of mass destruction.
George W. Bush
So, it's a good and noble thing to liberate Iraq, right?

America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy.
John Quincy Adams
You think the world may have shrunk since then?
Clinton had no problem going overseas either.

We Americans have no commission from God to police the world.
Benjamin Harrison

Again, different world today.

This President is going to lead us out of this recovery.
Dan Quayle
I think you got in a hurry when cutting and pasting this one. <grin>

It is unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the president or anyone else. -Theodore Roosevelt
Bush didn't lie. This is a lie which liberals promote to push their own agenda.
Now the liberal's golden boy Clinton was convicted of lying under oath, did that count?

Liberty and democracy become unholy when their hands are dyed red with innocent blood. Mahatma Gandhi

The same dosen't apply to tyrants and dictators?
Besides, Gandhi?
Come one. The man could hardly keep his diapers up. <grin>


But really though, ain't it great when we can discuss this without fear of retaliation from the government?

God bless this country.
And thanks for this website. <wink>

[Orgarden]

CT,

Sir, sadly I have to disagree with you whole-heartedly on many counts.

Liberating Iraq would've been great if they had taken their liberation into their own hands and asked us for help. I cannot think of any democratic nation (and if someone can please correct here) that was liberated by force, without some kind of organization of their own already in place, ending well.

Yes, Clinton went over there and many passed this off as a distraction... this also leads me into another disagreement. Bush did lie on many occassions but no one was willing to openly question him for fear of being labelled unpatriotic. Bush said after 9-11 that no one knew that this could happen and later it was found that they had documents labelled extremely important from the Clinton administration that addressed this very issue. The only difference between Clinton's lies being under oath and Bush's lies is one had a friendly congress that was willing to let things go uninvestigated while the other did not.

"Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires -- a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so." -Bush and proven that he conducted unauthorized wiretapping without a warrant at that time.

"And I have yet to hear from our commanders on the ground that they need more troops." -Bush

"I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees." -Bush. This one hurts the most because it was either a lie or neglect that cost many American citizens' lives and an American city to pretty much be wiped out. And if you think that the city is back up and running, try looking outside of the French Quarter. That and the fact that they temporarily generated power for only the time he stood in New Orleans for he speech makes me queezy.

I have to ask because I just can't understand but trying very hard to, what is it that you like so much about this President? And please do not say that he is keeping us safe because we haven't had an attack since 9-11. It was 8years between the first World Trade Center terrorist attack and 9-11.

[Cliff Timmons]

Before I go on futher, I want to say something.

I don't think that whatever we argue about in here or whatever we agree on isn't going to matter a flip and we are not going to sway anything. So I don't want to take this argument too seriously. It's just not worth it. This is a great fourm, and I'd hate to see it sink to lows that other forums have sunk to when talking about politics.

I can disagree with you 180 degrees and still love to shake your hand at the end and talk gardening. If we can do that then I will go on.

OK
I never said I liked the President very well. <grin>
I agreed with going into Iraq, but disagreed how we went in.
We should have let the military go in hard and fast. Not this shooting missles through a keyhole ****. Let the military do what they do best. Blow up things and kill folks. For what they are wanting to do over there they need much more military over there. But that won't happen and neither will freedom.

I disagree with him on the wiretapping that you mentioned. If we could garentee that the government would relinquish the ability to wire tap like they want once the war is over and the threat has died down, I might be able to go along with it. But we know that once an agency has a certian amout of power or leaway, they fight mighty hard to keep it.

I don't agree with him on the Immigration issue. But then I don't agree with either side of the isle on this. Neither side wants to address this. Meanwhle we are being flooded with a mess that we will regreat.

I agree with him on tax cuts.

I wish he would shrink the government like he promised.

Most of the conservative issues, I agree with, however, he and the Republican party has drifted might far from the conservative shore.

But then I ask myself, "Self, what other option is there?" I don't see one.

[JereGettle]

"But then I ask myself, "Self, what other option is there?" I don't see one."

May be Jesse Jackson?

[Cliff Timmons]

Domistic policies, Jackson would be a mess.

[Eric]

I want to see Bush, Rumfeld and the rest of his gang on trial for war crimes.

[Orgarden]

CT,

I'm so relieved that you feel that way about a disagreement! I feel the same way!

Immigration, I agree, is being mishandled by all parties. I've always liked the philosophy "take care of your own before you try to take care of others" We have plenty of extremely poor people living in unthinkable conditions here in the US.

As for whatever options are out there... I have that same dread this coming Presidential 08 election. The Republican party is imploding with finger pointing and distancing themselves from rough issues, the Democratic party's candidates so far make me cringe and the third parties may gain votes but have no hope of actually winning.

Personally, I would like to see Al Gore run again. Now that it seems that stick has been removed from his rear, I think he would make an excellent president. And he supports growing your own food as a way to fight against global warming ;)

[Cliff Timmons]

I was with ya right up and until you said Al Gore. <grin>

But at least we can find some middle gound here.

[Cliff Timmons]

I want to see Bush, Rumfeld and the rest of his gang on trial for war crimes.

At the risk of Pandora's box being kicked open,....

On what basis would there war crimes be held?

[gulfcoastguy]

So far I like the governor of Iowa Sacket is his name I think. He is actually proposing to go full steam ahead in seeking energy independence. That is something that I haven't heard anybody else make specific proposals about. Of course I will be listening to others right up till election day with an emphasis on the ones who give concrete proposals about actual problems rather than vague talk about helping the poor or saving our moral values. I donate to charities I like and have my own moral compass.

[GeorgeSims]

Thomas Vilsack, GCG.

[Sandbar]

Domistic policies, Jackson would be a mess.He would have a lot of votes from the children of however many women he fathered children with.

[redbrick]

He would have a lot of votes from the children of however many women he fathered children with.

Um, is that a proven fact? I'm not up on politics, so I don't know if it's a fair accusation. With no background information, the statement comes across as unfair and racially prejudiced. Again, I don't know the full story, and I don't wish to offend anyone. BUT, neither can I let such a smear (if it is one) slide by.

[Sandbar]

Here you are, RB. Google "Jesse Jackson affair" and you'll find plenty of links.

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=147&id=23742002

Did he have more than one affair? Did he father more than one "love child?" I don't know, however the cliche' "where there's smoke, there's fire" is resonating within my mind ... my response was part fact and part sarcasm ... I am no fan of Mr. Jackson.

Any man is fallible ... it's within our sin nature ... however, holding yourself up as a moral compass for the multitude and you can't restrain yourself to "husband of one wife" makes you a very poor example and, scripturally speaking, unworthy to lead a flock.

[redbrick]

SB, thank you for the link. I would agree that a Public Figure needs to have his house in order, and I am familiar with the "smoke and fire" adage. I do, however, believe that a man should stand accountable for the actions he has made, not the ones that, "well, he might have made,maybe."

Please don't think I'm trying to pick a fight. I understand your logic, really I do. And, yes, this situation is a black mark. I guess what I'm trying to say, badly, is be careful of assumptions, both the ones you (that's the generic "you", not the specific Sandbar "you") make and the ones others could make from your statements. Yeah, that's a pretty tall order, but also, a pretty necessary one, I feel.

[Sandbar]

I'm with ya', RB.

[Orgarden]

My fear is that Rudy Guilliani tries to run. Many have said that he has a chance because of 9-11

[Lavandula Girl]

Yeah, but he did move his mistress into Gracie Mansion..... remember when he was just a fiery young prosecutor looking to stamp out organized crime? Poor Rudy - that would have been his real presidential chance! I think he's pretty much just keeping his name in there in hopes of a cabinet spot. Mark my words - he'll get appointed to something or other if another republican takes the White House.

[Sandbar]

'08 will certainly be an interesting election. I don't think Rudy is a viable contender. Actually, I don't see any strong Republican contenders at all.

[Cliff Timmons]

There again Rudy Guilliani is not a conservative. He is very leftist in his leanings.

The Republicans have walked away from their conservative base.

I don't see anyone I could get excited about.

No answer Eric?
"a tumbleweeds rolls past as the crickets soflty sing their song."

<grin>

[TastyofHasty]

The sadness is that everybody has their own version of patriotism ... & one version is fighting 'gainst the other! ... kind of like one version of Muslim fighting 'gainst the other!

Link here is regarding $$$ cost of war in Iraq:
http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182

Where is all that $$$ going?

[Cliff Timmons]

All wars cost a bunch of money. And just like all wars, there are those who gouge the government.

Sad but true.

I don't wanna fight over who is patriotic and who isn't. We all have our opinion like you said.

Even if one of us has "The Answer" I doubt if anyone would listen to us anyway. <grin>

[windsng225]

Cliff I am with you! I believe that if we sent in double the troups that we did in the very beginning, guess what... it would be over by now. I believe that. Further more, one good thing came out of this (although it did cost lives) we got that mad man out of there, too bad they didn't kill him when they found him in the spider hole!
I say let's take him out of prison and give him to the people to throw rocks at him till he's dead, but that would be too fast, he should die slowly.
joyce

[fruits&nuts]

So why hasn't Jesse been complaining about our current war mongerer in chief? Or did I just miss it?

[tweed]

F&N?
Dude?
You dug up a 3 year old thread?
Yeah, its has some relevance but, JEEZ!


Steve

[FAADAN]

F&N?
Dude?
You dug up a 3 year old thread?
Yeah, its has some relevance but, JEEZ!


Steve

Think he was just trying to point out a little hypocrisy.

[lorna-organic]

Fruit&Nuts is a woman.

[Cliff Timmons]

No He has the ability to reason and makes sound judgments.
He can’t be a woman. <GRIN>

[lorna-organic]

ROTFL Set them straight, F&N!

[tweed]

Dudette, then! :D

Steve

[bunkie]

https://www.judicialview.com/Court-Cases/International/Vance-v-Rumsfeld/33/37310

from the ruling:

We agree with the district court that the plaintiffs may proceed with their Bivens claims against Secretary Rumsfeld. Taking the issues in ascending order of breadth, we agree first, applying the standards of Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 12(b)(6), that plaintiffs have alleged in sufficient detail facts supporting Secretary Rumsfeld’s personal responsibility for the alleged torture.

Second, we agree with the district court that Secretary Rumsfeld is not entitled to qualified immunity on the pleadings. The law was clearly established in 2006 that the treatment plaintiffs have alleged was unconstitutional. No reasonable public official could have believed otherwise.

Next, we agree with the district court that a Bivens remedy is available for the alleged torture of civilian U.S. citizens by U.S. military personnel in a war zone. We see no persuasive justification in the Bivens case law or otherwise for defendants’ most sweeping argument, which would deprive civilian U.S. citizens of a civil judicial remedy for torture or even cold-blooded murder by federal officials and soldiers, at any level, in a war zone. United States law provides a civil damages remedy for aliens who are tortured by their own governments. It would be startling and unprecedented to conclude that the United States would not provide such a remedy to its own citizens.

[Gardener5]

What a waste of the court system, if it is not thrown out by a higher court they will lose the case because I higher doubt they have proof that Rumsfield personally told the soldiers to comitt torture even if it happened in the first place.

[bunkie]

What a waste of the court system, if it is not thrown out by a higher court

it won't be a waste if he's proven guilty.

they will lose the case because I higher doubt they have proof that Rumsfield personally told the soldiers to comitt torture even if it happened in the first place.

we won't know till the evidence is provided. but surely, the court must have seen something to provide it to continue.

[stempy]

I want to see Bush, Rumfeld and the rest of his gang on trial for war crimes.

How about Clinton, Reno and Horiuchi? They killed more Americans on American soil than any other administration going back to Jackson!

[uprooted_kentuckian]

Its a civil case, not criminal. It isn't a direct reflection on anyone other than the soldiers involved. Rumsfeld was simply their boss.

Sorry Bunkie, but you won't get your jollies from this case.

[Nastarana]

Chickens come home to roost.

How many countries is it now where GW Bush, Henry the K, Darth Cheney and now Rumsfeld dare not travel? That means more than you might suppose; international travel is a Big Deal Status Marker among the overclass.

[bunkie]

Its a civil case, not criminal. It isn't a direct reflection on anyone other than the soldiers involved. Rumsfeld was simply their boss.

it could find its way up the ladder. not impossible.

Sorry Bunkie, but you won't get your jollies from this case.

'jollies'? sounds more like your kind of thing uk.

How about Clinton, Reno and Horiuchi? They killed more Americans on American soil than any other administration going back to Jackson!

prove it.

[FAADAN]

prove it.

Do you remember Waco? Randy Weaver? :rolleyes:

[Denninmi]

Yup, nothing like standing up for cop killers.

[FAADAN]

Yup, nothing like standing up for cop killers.

Just who killed cops?

[bunkie]

Do you remember Waco? Randy Weaver? :rolleyes:

so.

[stempy]

Yup, nothing like standing up for cop killers.

Did you mean Killer COPS?

[stempy]

so.

Phew! WOW!