Biofuels as an answer?

[HillsideDigger]

How much can the world's fuel supply be augmented by biofuels like from soybeans, palm nuts, corn, waste fibers, wood, frier grease, etc.?

Not much! Although small local benfits can be achieved.

A recent article I read (sorry, no link) stated the volume of energy currently being obtained worldwide from fossil fuels is 400 times the net gain in solar energy stored by biotic processes in the world each year.

In other words, if every speck of new vegetation and animal matter grown in the world this year (not sure if they meant land and sea or just land plants and animals) was converted to biofuels (leaving nothing for food and ground cover) this year, we would obtain only 1/4 of 1% of the fuel we will consume from fossil fuels this year!

Yet, crude oil will be depleted in the next decade or 2, natural gas won't last much longer and how much coal do we really want to burn?

'Get a piece of land and fight to keep it ...' - Who

'History shows again and again ...' - BOC

Obtain and cutivate and preserve them heirloom seeds before its to late.

:eek:

[Pharmerphil]

Interesting, Bio-diesel is used in this area on a large scale, and we have an ethanol plant that is very large.

[gulfcoastguy]

I have seen articles where switchgrass is converted to alcohol. This process is much less energy intensive than farming corn for alcohol. The switchgrass just regrows after being mowed and doesn't have to be replanted thereby minimizing erosion and energy use. Growing soybeans just for energy use is probably cost prohibitive but if you convert the used frying oil or limit it to surplus soybean oil it would at least be less wastfull. A percent here and a percent there really add up. of course the cheapest way is conservation. Replacing old heating and cooling systems with newer more efficient models, driving reasonably efficient cars rather than SUVS or trucks when possible, replacing black asphalt shingle roofs in warm climates with reflective metal roofs, washing clothes in cold water, using water reducing shower heads, not building a larger house than you need. many of these things can save you on tax credits in last summers energy bill.

[stonysoil]

i have good friends who convery used frying oil to biodiesel and run their vehicle on it.. sometimes it leaves an aroma of french fries.. also there are many other alternatives for sustainable fuel such as bio mass palntings of willow, certain algaes,, i think rather than spending so much money on defense and fighting a war for oil we shoud fund alternative safer and sustaina=ble ways for fuel production.. even though the large corporations wont benefit as much

[rjzatyko@yahoo.com]

Interesting, Bio-diesel is used in this area on a large scale, and we have an ethanol plant that is very large.
hi, if that enthanol plant is corn based( ? ) and used in gasoline, i bet that it is getting a subsidy from the federal gov.

[rjzatyko@yahoo.com]

i have good friends who convery used frying oil to biodiesel and run their vehicle on it.. sometimes it leaves an aroma of french fries.. also there are many other alternatives for sustainable fuel such as bio mass palntings of willow, certain algaes,, i think rather than spending so much money on defense and fighting a war for oil we shoud fund alternative safer and sustaina=ble ways for fuel production.. even though the large corporations wont benefit as much
Hi, I am sorry but i don't agree with what you are saying,and i hope that you don't take this the wrong way?There isn't enough of the frying oil to go around for everyone to use. If it is so good why don't you use it? There are websites that show how to set up biodiesel to use in your vehicle. I don't think that my neighbor would like that and it ain't cheap on a small scale that one person would use. These other alternatives that you typed in your post,have you done any of them or are you just rehashing what other people have talked about and done nothing about(hot air)? What have you got against the large corporations?If they weren't bringing us that oil for gasoline,what would you use in your vehicle? I have read that only 40per cent of oil goes for gasoline.The rest(60percent) of it goes for fertlizer for the farmers,all of your plastics and a ton of other items,to many to list.The U.S. is the third largest producer of oil in the world and we still have to ship in the other 50perecnt to make up the difference we use.I am for a strong military defence. What it costs is nothing, compared to haveing been caught with our pants down at the start of W.W.II. I guess that we should do is what they do in Europe, charge 6 bucks a gallon for gasoline.Boy that sure would cut down the use then.I could go on and on,but this is enough.Hey you have a good day and i hope that you don't take offense at what i have typed. richard

[Timeless Rogue]

I'll say it again: Wow! You sure are a negative guy, Richard! Are you suggesting MILITARILY supporting our oil consumption habits? Good grief, Charley Brown!

Bio-diesel DOES work, even on a small scale. You CAN brew it, so to speak, literally in your backyard for use on the farm ... or even in your car. Bio-diesel has been in use for years quite successfully. And actually, bio-diesel and ethanol manufacture and use can significantly augment our use of petroleum, overseas' or domestic.

And here comes another tirade ...

[gulfcoastguy]

Richard, crude oil is processed by catalytic cracking. This seperates it in to several liquids of various density and viscosity. Some of the lightest are gasoline, diesel, and kerosene and can be used for fuels. One of the thickest is asphalt and is used with rock and sand to pave the roads. Depending on the source of oil the percentages of light versus heavy products in a barrel vary. For instance Venezuelan oil tends to the heavy side and Saudi Arabian oil on the light and more usefull side. When the US started cracking oil kerosene was the desired product and gasoline was dumped or burned. Burning gasoline for fuel was an early means of not wasting material.

[rjzatyko@yahoo.com]

I'll say it again: Wow! You sure are a negative guy, Richard! Are you suggesting MILITARILY supporting our oil consumption habits? Good grief, Charley Brown!

Bio-diesel DOES work, even on a small scale. You CAN brew it, so to speak, literally in your backyard for use on the farm ... or even in your car. Bio-diesel has been in use for years quite successfully. And actually, bio-diesel and ethanol manufacture and use can significantly augment our use of petroleum, overseas' or domestic.

And here comes another tirade ...
----Rouge fits you Perfect---A dishonest and unprincipled person.Again you take out of context what i have written.You are good at lying.You would have fit in perfect in Nazi Germany,Communist Russia or the Klu Kux Klan.You would have been the leader of one of those goon squads,who went around killing people like me.You think that i should be a mindless robot and follow what you say hook,line and sinker and not say what i think and feel.Well let me put you straight bud(you are scum).We live in the good ole U.S.A.and i have the freedom to say what is on my mind.Thank GOD for the Military and the Police to protect me from the likes of you.This is a free country and if you don't like what i say,then you stick it where the sun don't shine. I am a free American and not a slave to you. Richard a Proud AMERICAN

[Timeless Rogue]

Richard, Richard, Richard!!! Oh my goodness!!! Geez, I certainly hope your new day starts out better than you ended the old one! But thank you for starting mine with one of those deep, gut-busting laughs!

I'm actually already investigating conversion kits so I can use ethanol in my next pick-up. I'll let you know how it works out.

[GreenCap]

Are you a little angry,Richard? :mad: Yikes! :eek:, I must have missed the part where rogue said you were a mindless robot, I didn't get that from his post, I saw he said you were negative, and it was YOUR post that proved it to be true. I think ANY effort to find other ways to get fuel is a good thing, also conserving as much as possible. It starts with us, each of us, individually. There are So many ways we could use less,( drive less, mow less, eat locally grown foods, just to name a few) and bio-diesel might not be right for everyone, but if even 1% of people used it, well that's 1% less dependant we are on foriegn oil. By the way rogue I have read your posts and you do not seem at all "scummy" to me. :)

[PhilosopherStorm]

Wow, Rich, that is really over the top.. as well as ironic.. (which you might want to check out.. )

[GreenCap]

:D Philosopher

[rjzatyko@yahoo.com]

Richard, Richard, Richard!!! Oh my goodness!!! Geez, I certainly hope your new day starts out better than you ended the old one! But thank you for starting mine with one of those deep, gut-busting laughs!

I'm actually already investigating conversion kits so I can use ethanol in my next pick-up. I'll let you know how it works out.
I stand by my last posting,you are a dangerous person and you are to be avoided at all cost's. richard

[rjzatyko@yahoo.com]

Richard, crude oil is processed by catalytic cracking. This seperates it in to several liquids of various density and viscosity. Some of the lightest are gasoline, diesel, and kerosene and can be used for fuels. One of the thickest is asphalt and is used with rock and sand to pave the roads. Depending on the source of oil the percentages of light versus heavy products in a barrel vary. For instance Venezuelan oil tends to the heavy side and Saudi Arabian oil on the light and more usefull side. When the US started cracking oil kerosene was the desired product and gasoline was dumped or burned. Burning gasoline for fuel was an early means of not wasting material.
Hi, I understand what you are saying about crude oil,but i must be missing something in your post to me and i admit that (me only-no one else) I am not the brightest person in the world. Sir: what is your point or what are you trying to tell me? richard from ky.

[Timeless Rogue]

Good morning, Richard from KY ...

What Gulfcoastguy is trying to explain is the by-products of the oil cracking process and the fact that the initial goal of the process was the production of kerosene ... the gasoline, not being of any use at that time, was either dumped or burned off. Also the fact that Saudi oil is more valuable as a source of the lighter products such as gasoline, mostly due to the processing being 'less complicated' so to speak.

[gulfcoastguy]

Richard, my point was that in some shipments of crude oil only a certain percentage of the oil is able to be converted to gasoline or diesel fuel. Not all crude oils are equal in the percentage of gasoline and diesel that they contain. The other products like plastics, fertilizers, asphalt for roads etc are merely a way to use what is left of the oil after the gasoline and diesel are removed rather than burying it right back into the ground. I am withdrawing from this thread now.

[HillsideDigger]

Our soils and water are to fragile and precious to be allocated to providing energy for our gluttonous habits, particularly when that energy can be obtained from alternate renewable sources (and could be used at vastly reduced levels with no reduction in quality of life).

[Timeless Rogue]

Agreed, HillsideDigger ... it's not a matter of what percentage of our current energy consumption is provided by alternate resources, it's what percentage of our current energy consumption now provided by the use of crude oil by-products can be provided by alternate resources. And it's our duty to our selves and our environment to do our best to further that goal ... and as quickly as we can, regardless of the dollar cost initially, 'cause the eventual environmental cost that will be the result of not doing so is not worth any price ...

[PhilosopherStorm]

Let's keep in mind total costs, which includes production of the resource. For instance I recall reading from several places that the current environmental costs of corn based fuels is far higher than petroleum given the fertilizers used, the machinery used to harvest, the methods of production etc. It is not merely the instant of burning which is important but the entire process..

[exile3]

I don't think it is wise to put our hopes in alternative fuel sources. As this thread started out saying, there simply isn't enough of anything to support the lifestyle we currently enjoy. The problem isn't source. The problem is consumption.

[Timeless Rogue]

Agreed about consumption ... which can be somewhat mitigated with the use of any alternative fuels. So I don't think it's a matter pinning hopes on bio-diesel and such so much as using those sources as ... well, as alternative fuels to help offset a bit of the consumption of crude-oil byproducts while at the same time doing what we can to cut back on that very consumption.

Of course, we're not speaking just of 'mechanical' consumption ... we're also talking about solar, wind, hydro and in some cases geothermal energy. The first two ... solar and wind ... we can certainly take significant advantage of at consumer level ... as many are already doing and many more are contemplating ... at our homes, farms/ranches and businesses.

[wvorganics]

The real issue that I see with ethanol production is that is it very energy expensive, especially ethanol produced by corn. The energy that is put into producing that much corn is greater than the amount of energy that the ethanol from this particular crop can give. The process isn't just growing corn and wala you have ethanol. The production of ethanol from corn requires many steps, most of which create nonresuable by-products. Although I strongly agree that an alternative needs to be found, I really don't feel that corn is the most energy efficient way to go. Can you image the amount of corn that would need to be grown in order to produce enough fuel for the US alone. Most farmers would likely begin to produce some genetically modified corn crop because the same production problems will just be amplified; European corn borer, reduced fertilitly of soil, etc.
I think as a union that we need more than one answer, there is not one thing that we can produce to replace oil alone, we need many efficient methods. The county of Brazil has managed to make themselves less dependant on oil. They produce sugar as a fuel source, and it seems to be functioning very well for them.
The sun is the most powerful force in the solar system, even ancient indian cultures figured that out, if we don't start harnessing it's energy than maybe we deserve what we get. I just saw a documentary on discovery that illustrated how one company has put a huge solar panel in the desert of New Mexico and the amount of energy collected was equilivant to one coal fired power plant, that's a lot of energy.
Plus people, have we forgotten about global warming, ethanol still produces polluants, but biowillie doesn't, either does wind, hydro, or solar. These are our best options right at this moment, ethanol was introduced to us and is being promoted by the media, who we all know, or at least should know by now, are liars and do what they are told. They were told that this is what they should report on, not any other method and that is all that has been in the news lately. Image who put money in their pockets this time, maybe the Bush administration and their Monosanto friends, or maybe the corn lobbyists in the central US.
Be careful everybody, if the news people and the oil (Bush) people think it is good, than that means it's not.

[TastyofHasty]

My hubby and I visited an underground house about 10 miles away two days ago. An old man lived there, said he has no problems with leaks or mold ... his job had been bulldozer operator ... he went ahead and bulldozed out a hole & built a house in it, cement roof & walls, painted with water sealer, covered over with 2-1/2' of dirt. He showed us his electric bill for last month, which was $38.

[Farmgirl303]

Keep in mind that already around 60 to 80% of the corn grown in the US is genetically modified. 80% of soybeans are as well. The people happiest about corn-derived ethanol are the corn lobby and the oil company executives (and, of course, Monsanto) as the amount of petroleum inputs is huge. Fertilizers, pesticides, and herbicides are all petroleum based products. Add on top of that the fuel needed to run the tractors and then for transporting the product and then the fuel needed for the fermentation tanks and the stills to purify the ethanol, etc. etc. Nobody mentions reducing consumption.

[zebraman]

Hey Guys;It is Too bad they can't press Gas out of Illegal Aliens.Actually no One asnwer is going to make up the Difference.But then again this is America and if Their is a way to make a mountain of Money someone will find the answer.And if anybody thinks I am going to give up my 57 Ford Retractible Hardtop,to save gas is Dreaming.All we need to do is Invade Iran!Find out if Nuclear Bombs are really as Bad as everyone says they are.-

[gulfcoastguy]

Actually quite a few people mention reducing consumption. When I bought a new car last July I bought a Toyota Matrix. I gets 29 to 34 mpg and has one of the best tail pipe emissions around(source MotherEarth News),. If I could have saved for six more months or they had announced the new tax credits I would have bought a new Prius hybrid. Since I only live an 8 minute drive from work(deliberately) I decided to put the difference of $6000.00 into upgrading the energy efficiency of my house. The local power comes from a very dirty coal power plant. My sister just bought a Volkswaggen Jetta diesel burning car the gets over 45 mpg and is capable of burning biodiesel when it becomes available or when she can set up to make it.
A political reality for the last 30 years and at least the next several years is that government subsidies encourage raising surplus corn and soybeans. We might as well use the surplus to recover some of the energy. I recently saw another study that said the energy cost of producing ethanol from corn is less than the energy gained but I don't have the link on hand. Another thing to consider is that research is underway to use enzymes or bacteria to convert celluose material like corn stalks and cobs and even switchgrass into alcohol at a much higher level of efficiency. The switch grass is treated like hay, mow it and let it grow back from the roots. This will save a lot of energy on cultivation with no need for pesticides. Anyway it seems to be working for Brazil, using ethanol that is. As to fertilizer, if it is not being used for human consumption it could be fertilized with sludge from sewage plants.
If you want to talk about killing renewable energy ask Senator Ted Kennedy of Massachusetts. A company wanted to put the worlds largest windmill farm in federal waters 15 miles from his house in Nantucket. He got an admendment to a bill attached authorizing Governor Roemer(sic?) of Massachusetts to kill the project.

[zebraman]

Hey at least Ted didn't Kill anybody,OK not recently anyway.-

[HOD]

Biofuel... Hahahahaha. New effecient auto's. Bigger haha.
Already mentioned is how much ENERGY it takes to GROW, HARVEST, and TRANSPORT the stuff? And the new cars? How much energy to manufacture one of those? And, what is the payback time, in miles till you reach the "break even" point on energy with a new car? Not that both of those will not HELP things, but, anyone who thinks that biofuel, solar, wind, etc. will allow them to keep on plugging along at the same standard of living they now enjoy is fooling themselves.

TOTAL ENERGY that has to be paid for at every step of the way is going to figure into the price at the pump, and that is going to make $100 a barrel oil look cheap, imo. Biodeisel... Made from sunflowers, rapeseed, etc. Better, but still gonna cost more that the stuff we pump out of the ground. Lots more.

The real answer, sadly for many folks, is a reduced standard of living. I am not saying that I think that is a nice thing, but the age of cheap gasoline is GONE, over, done for, fini... It only gets more expensive from here, and that is gonna spell PAIN or change for lots of folks.

Yeah, there is a ton of money to be made in the coming changes as we wind down the old era and figure out the new ways.

The conserative republican types better learn to pedal a bike, walk more, and spend less on the latest super-whatsis-from-china, and the liberal democrats will have to learn to pronounce "Nuclear Energy" "Offshore Drilling" and "Alaskan Pipelines" and like it.

On top of that bad news, the dollar is having the guts ripped out of it, and is on it way to join the Reichmark and Zimbabwei dollar in purchasing ability. Gold And Silver say the constitution, and these Federal Reserve fools are printing paper, and saying that it is "Legal Tender". :mad: The Fed has stopped publishing the M3 Money supply figures. (Like removing the depth gauge from a submarine, so you have no idea that you are sinking, or how fast. Well, not till you hear things start to break right before it all implodes.)

Methinks it is gonna get nasty, and me-also-thinks that only some land, a garden and some animals, along with a stash of defensive arms to discourage the midnight shoppers is going to have any real value.

But, thats just me. Just a paraniod old fogey who get out of the big city several years ago.

For my kids sake, I hope I am WAY wrong about what is coming down the pike.
For the rest of you... Check out the boy scout motto.

Hod.

[gulfcoastguy]

Well since Americans buy a new automobile every 6 years or so anyway they might as well make the most of it and get a more efficient one. BTW automobile steel is one of the most recycled materials around. About biodiesel it probably won't replace diesel on its on but as I said we are subsidizing excess corn and soybean production anyway. Might as well make the best of it. As far as transportation, biodiesel can be produced locally in any state in the union. At least we won't have to post army troops to guard the soybean fields.
You are right about how the cost of energy is going to lower the standard of living at least for the next 20 years or so. Now if we had seriously started conserving energy and developing alternative fuels after the first oil crisis in 73 we might not be in such a pickle. Oh and I agree that means more domestic oil production and nuclear energy. I just chose to be part of the solution.

[HillsideDigger]

Whats going to happen after this 20 years of 'lowered standard of living' due to the energy crisis?

Are we going to emerge into a wonderful new world due to abundant new sources of technologically created energy sources?

I don't think so, after 20 years of lowered standard of living, the standard will then plummet due to overpopulation and resource depletion.

Others might adopt my non-mechanized form of gardening/farming.

[gulfcoastguy]

Well if nobody does anything to change it, that is pretty much what will happen. Do what you want to.

[chubbyduckie]

Ok, Hillside gardener, give us some ideas about your non-mechanized farming and gardening. I'm all for learning whatever I can and teaching my grandkids how to survive without being so dependent.
The younger generation really are the ones who will suffer - they just won't have a clue, I'm afraid.

[HillsideDigger]

Maybe I should have said non-motorized, because technically hoes, shovels, rakes, scythes, sickles and other such hand tools are machines.

[mrtomatoexpres]

hi farmgirl yuor right and zebraman maybe if they could make alot of money they would get fuel from illegal alliens and as for teddy boy with all the alcohol he drank maybe we can fuel the whole country from him :D . i watched a show about windmill power i forgot what country maybe holland they also have energy houses.dreambuilders is a show i watch one guy has solar panals that can be moved to get all the suns energy,someone built a house out of straw and earth a earth rammed house. i saw aguy use used tires he filled them with earth built his house said his electric bill is very low. dennis weaver did the same his electric bill was about 8 dollars :eek: what ever we talk about or what we see on tv about this you will never see it ny to much politics and the unions to :mad:

[mrtomatoexpres]

hi anyone ever hear the song by genesis from the 80's allegal alien. its not easy being a illegal alien yes it is if there in america. zebraman hear about teddy boy his plane got hit by lighting wonder if anybody got killed on the plane picture him bouncing around the plane burp :) the only way there was no crash was all the alcohol he drank :D

[wvorganics]

HOD
It is the republicans that can't pronounce nuclear.
I don't necessarily think that we need to lower our standard of living, however many people will have to learn how to live responsibly and be conscience about the things that they do, which for me is increase in the standard of living. Being conscience for most people is really hard. ;)

[wvorganics]

Hey Guys;It is Too bad they can't press Gas out of Illegal Aliens.Actually no One asnwer is going to make up the Difference.But then again this is America and if Their is a way to make a mountain of Money someone will find the answer.And if anybody thinks I am going to give up my 57 Ford Retractible Hardtop,to save gas is Dreaming.All we need to do is Invade Iran!Find out if Nuclear Bombs are really as Bad as everyone says they are.-


You just don't get it, your probably from the generation that went through a few wars and still thinks it was good, thanks for ruining the world for the later generations. I'm sick of picking up after you people. I hope your social secruity check gets lost.
Why don't you take your 57 Ford Retractible Hardtop and drive it in Iran while some Illegal Aliens drop some of those "good" bombs.
Enjoy your retirement, we know its all about you

[zebraman]

Hey WvOrganics;I am 47 which is too young to get SS check or retire.Also I produce a TV show which means I have great life and my closet is filled with FABULOUS Clothes and Shoes!
For the record,Driving to Downtown L.A. is the same as driving to Mexico.Driving to Westwood,CA. is the same as driving to Iran.I do however plan on retiring before 50 so I can ENJOY everything that I have worked for!

[wvorganics]

HA.
Don't you know; friends don't let friends go to L.A.
FYI- Hollywierd and L.A. aren't as cool as they used to be, figured that out in the mid 90s while living in SB. Look at what YOU people have done to it, your people voted for Arnold
Silly rich people, you kill me
Thanks for the laughs

[werecat]

You just don't it, your probably from the generation that went through a few wars and still thinks it was good, thanks for ruining the world for the later generations. I'm sick of picking up after you people. I hope your social secruity check gets lost.
Why don't you take your 57 Ford Retractible Hardtop and drive it in Iran while some Illegal Aliens drop some of those "good" bombs.
Enjoy your retirement, we know its all about you

What's surviving a few wars got to do with anything? You lost me there. My mum grew up in London during the blitz and was grateful as hell just to have survived when the houses on either side of her were blown to kingdom come and my dad was in the military during the vietnam war as an air craft mechanic (marine). Both live very carefully as much as possible in harmony with nature. If ZebraMan wants to keep his classic car and he is willing to pay the gas for it for as long as it lasts, more power to him. As for the rest of what he says, from some of his other posts I get the feeling that was all tongue in cheek not meant to be taken seriously. I am lost with the concept of blaming a single generation for the woes of the world. Things didnt get crappy in one generation. It has been long in coming and it's just that now is when some people are really paying attention and trying to fix things. Why waste the energy getting angry and blaming someone for the problems. Just live your life as you feel is right and be happy. If everyone did that it would go a long way to beginning to fix things in my opinion (for whatever that is worth).

[mrtomatoexpres]

hi every generation blames the next ;)

[TastyofHasty]

Hello there, just wanted to say the Dept of Energy has a sub-department called "Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy," and they have a webpage, and they also have a newsletter you can subscribe to; (anyway, it's nice to know our government is working on the problem along with all the other governments in the world) ... here's the link:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/news/enn.cfm

... uhhh ... this other link is to a webpage that seems to have grown huge in the past few months ... a bunch of people worrying about our energy future (and by the way, a bunch of 'em want to start up GARDENING):
http://www.peakoil.com/forums.html

[wvorganics]

Werecat-
It's not his 57' ford, but the attitude of illegals and bombs. Surviving a few wars isn't a bad thing either. But some of the wars we have participated in, like presently, are uncalled for. And I'm sorry, but the millions of younger people do blame older generations, mainly because most of bad decisions made by the US have occurred on your watches, not mine, I'm just stuck paying, $$$$, the bill.
Don't mean to make you older people angry, but the world you lived in when you were 20 something is 100% different then the one that I have to live in. Nothing is the same.
Sorry and have a nice day

[werecat]

Umn, how old do you think I am? For the record, I'm mid 30's. While I will neither agree for argue about the necessity of war, the average person had little if anything to do with the choice to go to war or not. The soldiers simply do the honorable thing and stand by the oath they gave when they joined up. You say these things happen during my generation's "watch". You lay blame as if your generation is the only one "stuck paying, $$$$, the bill". It's not. Everyone alive currently and yet to be born are all going to be the one's that either contribute energy to the solution or energy to pointing fingers and wasting time trying to figuring out who's at fault. What does your anger and angst accomplish? I can't see that it accomplishes much of anything. Again, I will suggest that you and we all try to find small ways that we can contribute to the solutions. If everyone did that, the problems wouldnt seem near so bad nor seem to cost so much.

[mrtomatoexpres]

hi when i was 20 witch is 24 years ago things were way different. life was so much better in the 80's :)

[werecat]

hi when i was 20 witch is 24 years ago things were way different. life was so much better in the 80's :)

LOL no arguements there. Hair bands, pre AIDS, no mortgage or car payments, no bills, my money was mine....Hey MOM! can I move back home?? LOL

[zebraman]

Hey Wvorganics;You keep stating that you are stuck paying the Bill.What Bill is that?
I make well over 100k a year.I'll bet I pay more in taxes than you.
Another thing America makes the Best Bombs in the World.Why shouldn't we use them?
I don't know about you,but I like speaking English!
The Best Thing about pointing the finger at the Generation before you is to avoid looking at yourself.
I got my Graduate degree from UCLA in the 80's which I payed for myself.
My life was Great in the 70's,80's,90's and is great now too.
Do I like paying over 3.00 a gallon for gas-NO.But then again What can you do?If you live in a city like LA you can't give up driving.
And for the Record the #1 thing that is ruining Southern California is Millions of Illegal Aliens(Criminals).-

[ipaintedmyhousewhite]

"Illegal aliens" or "explorers"? Sorry, just stirring things up. Not that they need it.

So interesting, this discussion about the different "worlds" of the older and the younger...makes me think about the different worlds (expectations & ideals) when this land was a bit younger versus now. Did the natives of North America have such conversations about Europeans, I wonder?

[Jim]

Been following this thread for a few weeks, now that it's bounced back to the top, I'll chip in my two cents.

Anyway I ran across an op-ed piece the other day that pointed out that the current projections of "running out of oil" are based on exponentially increasing rates of consumption. When faced with exponential increases in consumption of a commodity - minor decreases in the rate of increase mean that said commodity lasts much much longer than projected.

You would get this by wide spread adoption of biofuels and fuel efficiency advances. A full replacement is not necessary, substitute and save enough that the demand for oil stagnates. I believe the exact percentage required was fairly small. Voila - 200 years to go, and hopefully enough time to transition away from petroleum. Oh yea - and you gotta get the Chinese to go along.

I've tried to find the article again - if anyone remembers it and can find it - please post a link.

However to spur the transition, it's got to be profitable to sell the alternative and painfull to keep using the status quo. For example - I've done the math and it would take $5 gas to get me out of my 18mpg full size pickup and into something like a Honda Civic for my 60 mile RT commute. I'd buy a diesel or hybrid truck if it was available now (and pay the premium)- but it's not. When I replace it in a couple years maybe the alternative will be available. Ford isn't about to make the alternative available unless there is a PROFITABLE market for half-ton trucks with fuel economies in the 20's.

Bring on the five dollar gas because that's the only way we'll ever make the transition.

Just making decisions in my immediate financial self interest versus that of the common good. Thus I'm not so different from all you spoiled boomers that won't let Social Security be reformed thus negatively impacting my taxes here in a couple years :D ,

(Sorry - couldn't resist)

[werecat]

How this ended up being about illegal aliens rather than the bio fuel it started out, I don't know, but I have absolutely no problem with peolpe immigrating to the US. My mum is still after almost 50 years a registered alien. She came from England. My great grandfather on my father's side came here from Germany. Had they not, I wouldn't have been born. What I find disturbing is that people can just wonder through and come in completely illegally and are not paying taxes or anything else. If someone comes here the right way and works legally and is paying all the same taxes and so on that a natural citizen does, awesome! I love all the different cultures that can be found here. I just think that if you going to come here, do it honorably and legally for crying out loud.

[zebraman]

Hey Werecat;The majority of Illegals that are coming here illegally can't do the right thing because they are criminals in Mexico and Can't make it past the screening process.
Hey IPMHW;those Native Americans sold the Entire Island of Manhattan for a couple of bags of Glass Beads.They Have nobody to blame but Themselves.-

[HillsideDigger]

Jim wrote:

Voila - 200 years to go, and hopefully enough time to transition away from petroleum.

200 years of oil remaining?

Thats mighty optimistic from what I have read.

At current levels of worldwide consumption, it seems there is no more than 40 years worth of oil left and with the expected continued large increases in annual worldwide demand, I would bet there will be essentially no oil left to produce in less than 20 years.

Norway, for example, the largest oil exporter in Europe figures there reserves will be completely exhuasted in less than 10 years. The USA domestically has only 2 to 3 years worth of reserves (including ANWR) if all our consumption was supplied from domestic production and if it could all be produced in such a short time.

[wvorganics]

Hey Wvorganics;You keep stating that you are stuck paying the Bill.What Bill is that?
I make well over 100k a year.I'll bet I pay more in taxes than you.
Another thing America makes the Best Bombs in the World.Why shouldn't we use them?
I don't know about you,but I like speaking English!
The Best Thing about pointing the finger at the Generation before you is to avoid looking at yourself.
I got my Graduate degree from UCLA in the 80's which I payed for myself.
My life was Great in the 70's,80's,90's and is great now too.
Do I like paying over 3.00 a gallon for gas-NO.But then again What can you do?If you live in a city like LA you can't give up driving.
And for the Record the #1 thing that is ruining Southern California is Millions of Illegal Aliens(Criminals).-


What bill? Your crazy. The bill of blowing up another country for oil, yeah that's right oil,not democracy. My second child, who is due in about 2 weeks owes ~30K, so does my 4 year old. So, beacuse I don't want to past it on to my children I currently owe 120K for something really stupid. I don't avoid looking at my generation, but we haven't done anything, we haven't even been given the opportunity
Great, I'm happy to hear that you make over 100K, but in Ca. that isn't that much. Stop thinking that it is. I don't care about how much you make or the taxes that you pay, that doesn't make you intelligent or capable of logical decisions.
You should get over this America is best, especiallly at bombs, what a stupid thing to be proud of. Just FYI it was probably an arab or european chemist that discovered how to make those bombs, we (US) just bought the info. from them, but it sounds like your into buying things. So it is right up your alley.
Congats, on paying for your education back in the 80s, I'm paying for mine too, unforunately they are a lot more expensive now. I have paid my B.S, my M.S., and now my Ph.D, and I'm not getting degrees in stupid things like communications/TV, it science, you should read some.
And as for all the Mexicans (criminals) being the #1 problem is So. Cal., I don't think so. Your problem is hollywood and all the idiots making way too much money. Your main problem is the son of Nazi (criminal) that you all hired to be your gov. I would rather have a Mexican neighbor than Arnold as a government offical.
So big money maker, how many of those mexs. do you hire to take care of your grass at your home or office? Most people that complain about them being here wouldn't do the manual labor that they do; grass cutting, strawberry picking, trash pick up.
I lived in Ca.(Santa Barabara$$$), its true
Have a good day :p

[zebraman]

Hey WVO;This thread is from last month.What took you so long?
First of all I make WAY over 100k.I also Spend less than I make,which is Why I have a Happy and Successful Life.My house is paid for.
My undergraduate degree is in Ethno-Botany,Masters is in Fine Art.I was offered the position for producing the show because I was in the Right place at The Right Time.I met the owner while doing Art direction on another film.The US DID NOT buy the info from arabs(Where did you get this from)?Also it was America that showed Saudi Arabia How to drill for oil and it was us that led Them out of the Stone Age!
The Reason We,myself included voted Arnold into office,Was to recall Davis who had All but sold the state into Bankruptcy and Ruin.I am in the minority as a Republican in S.CA which means a huge number of Democrats also voted for him.
I do All of my own Yardwork,This site By the Way is for avid Gardeners! Did You Miss that?Why would I hire anyone to have fun in My yard?We hire White Maintanace workers because I complained!Loudly!(At Studio)
Thanks for the laugh,honey.-

[GrowTheSeeds]

I think biofuels help.
Things to think about
1 - An arobic digester (if you have cows, etc) and have the methane run a fuel cell (their might be grants for this)
2 - Try a google or other search engine for Methane Hydrates (some people think there is 10 gigi-tons)

[gulfcoastguy]

I think you mean anerobic(without air) digester growtheseeds but your point is well taken. The methane can also be used to produce methanol(wood alcohol which is usually made from natural gas). Methanol is a key ingredient in producing biodiesel. Biodiesel doesn't get the publicity that ethanol does but growing and producing it is actually easier on the land and it has a ready market in every 18 wheeler you see. I live in the "Katrina Zone" and there are so many sewage plants that need to be built, replaced, or expanded that I wish the DEQ would list it as a preferred option. BTW while I am not up to date on current methods, I did take a couple of college courses in waste water treatment 20 someodd years ago.

[HOD]

What was the question again?

Maybe it would be easier to saddle up the holstein... (We have a bull calf with a pre determined destiny, and he produces copious amounts of potential bio-fuel in gasious form. But, I cannot imagine the collection apparatus required to make anything useful.)

Just use oxen and a cart, and forget collecting the f*rts. Slow but steady transportation, milk, fertilizer, and most of the bull calf by product is meat for the table...

:rolleyes:

[HillsideDigger]

"• This year's world grain harvest is projected to fall short of consumption by 61 million tons. That's the sixth time in the past seven years that production has failed to satisfy demand, notes Lester Brown, president of the Earth Policy Institute in Washington.

He expects the world carry-over stocks of grain, a basic measure of food security, to fall to 57 days of consumption by the end of this crop year. That level stands as the shortest buffer since a 56-day-low in 1956 doubled grain prices.

So prices could rise again."

Copied from: http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0703/p15s01-cogn.html

So where is all the excess grain for biofuels going to come from?

[gulfcoastguy]

We have thousands of acres of former farmland lying fallow in my state alone. There used to be 8 farms on the road my grandmother lives on. She is the only one left living there and all that is growing on that former 450 acres is pine trees now. I still think biodiesel from soybeans would be easier to grow over all and sugar cane would produce more alcohol per acre.

[GrowTheSeeds]

gulfcoastguy thanks for the spelling correction :)

I did some searcing on methane hydrates using google search "methane hydrates 10 gigatons" here are a few

http://www.killerinourmidst.com/methane%20and%20MHs2.html

http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/003849.html

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/gas-hydrates/index.html

you might be able to tell if it's correct information or not, I don't know.

[gulfcoastguy]

I couldn't tell you if it is correct or not. I don't know if it would be economical or not to extract it from the deep oceans. I like capturing the methane from sewage because sewage has to be treated anyway, might as well get something usefull out of it. I also like biofuels because the carbon dioxide released in burning them was absorbed during the growing of the plants. One of the more promising things is plug in hybrids. They have a larger than normal battery pack allowing them to run in electric only mode. Most of the renewable energy like wind and solar is turned into electricity, plug in hybrids can make good use of it. Like I heard elsewhere, "there is no silver bullet for the energy shortage, it is more likely to be silver buckshot"

[GrowTheSeeds]

gulfcoastguy thanks for you comments.
Came across this newspaper article about barnyard energy
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/fuelcell-energy/message/29208

[zebraman]

Hey HOD; You said-But,I cannot imagine the collection apperatus required to make anything useful.I take it you don't receive Marquis Magazine.OK it is a little expensive at $19.00 per issue.But at least you wouldn't have to imagine anything.-

[HillsideDigger]

"In the United States, humankind is already managing and using more than half of all the solar energy captured by photosynthesis. Yet even this is insufficient to our needs, and we are actually using nearly three times that much energy, or about 40% more energy than is captured by all plants in the United States [italics in the original]. This rate is made possible only because we are temporarily drawing upon stored fossil energy; the very use of these fossil fuels, plus erosion and other misuse of our natural resources, are reducing the carrying capacity of our ecosystem."

http://dieoff.org/page58.htm

[johno]

I don't know too much about biofuels, but I wonder what everyone thinks about the future of hydrogen both as a fuel and a source of electricity?

[gulfcoastguy]

Hydrogen is fine but the question is how is it produced. One common way is electrolysis or passing electricity through water to split it into hydrogen and water. Of course you have to have a surplus of environmentally friendly and cheap electricity already available to do that. In that case it would be more efficient to use electric cars or plugin hybrid cars. Another way is to seperate hydrogen from natural gas and other fossil fuels, of course if you are going to do that it is actually more efficient energy wise to just burn the fossil fuels. Unless you were talking about nuclear fusion, that has suppose to be ready in "just 20 years" for the past 40 years.