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bekajoi
February 24th, 2010, 11:49 AM
Pretty please! I have 3 of these... one out front, 2 out back. They all had the same holey leaf issue last year and I need to look it up so I can try and help it along this year. :) Alas, I got no pics of the leaf problem up close, just loads of holes in them all the way up, brown edges around the holes. No bugs visible.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4023/4385309194_cbdaafdd73_o.jpg

This is the best pic I have of the leaves (upper right), they are smaller leaves but *are* individual from one another.

Bark is fairly soft but that could be from whatever it has, not the type of tree it is.

I've looked through tree ID sites and can't figure it out.

ETA bigger pic, click to make it larger, tree is about as tall as my bi-level house.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2788/4385332160_5397de5178.jpg (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2788/4385332160_23517493f1_o.jpg)

thinkingmom
February 24th, 2010, 11:51 AM
Shouldn't this be on the tree forum? Oh, that's right, we don't have one YET - Right??!! ;)

Wish I could help with your ID - but I can't...someone here will know, though, for sure.

Absolute_Skeletor
February 24th, 2010, 12:13 PM
Could you post a branch picture... So we could see budding and leaf scars? Im going to look through my tree book later and see if i can find this.

Absolute_Skeletor
February 24th, 2010, 12:17 PM
http://www.shorewood-hills.org/departments/forester/tree_disease/dutch_elm.jpg

Anything like this?

http://texastreeplanting.tamu.edu/treepictures/elm_american.jpg

Im going to guess american elm...

Maybe dutch elm disease?

I am not sure..that is only a guess. Hopefully we'll get more help...An up close picture of a cutting would help

bekajoi
February 24th, 2010, 12:37 PM
It does look SIMILAR to an elm based on the way the tree looks and the leaves are close but there were never any of the berry type things? I suppose there could be some without that, or I guess the squirrel that lives in the tree could be eating them all. Elm was the only thing that looked even remotely right but it didn't seem to fit either.

It did go yellow in the fall, but the edges of the leaves didn't brown up like that. It was full of holes. Hmm, looking up holes and elm I found this... http://www.global-garden.com.au/burnley/mar00dte.htm I didn't SEE any bugs, and it was really really obvious that the holes were bottom branches up to the tops of the trees.

Off to take pics of the bare tree now. Will get far away for structure and close up of a few branches.

GrowNut
February 24th, 2010, 12:43 PM
Looks like Chinese Elm to me!

ovenbird
February 24th, 2010, 12:50 PM
In general, nothing needs to be done for mature trees. How many years have you observed this tree problem? If only one year, it could be climatic, or episodic. Do you see borer holes in the tree trunk? If the tree has been invaded, you may choose to address that problem, but I would not use a systemic as I sue my leaves in the garden and compost. Anyway, there is no rush as a tree can take a hit a few years before it succumbs.

The drip line is the kind of donut shaped area where water drips from the leaves to the ground. This is where the feeder roots of a tree are. It hurts trees to have soil raised over the drip line of the tree. A small tree circle garden can be placed around a mature tree, but not a large area over the drip line. So in your garden plans, plan not to disturb your tree area and keep a little further away from it to give it room to grow, or you will be fighting roots in your garden.

bekajoi
February 24th, 2010, 12:53 PM
Bare branches, structure (with all click to see larger pic, will cut them off if I try and post them here)

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4040/4384682513_f8ffedd1d7.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4040/4384682513_f8ffedd1d7_b.jpg)
Top of leaf, found one with holes but not sure how easy the holes are to see here. Hands are pretty small, for reference (wear a 5 for my ring!)

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4008/4385445272_4e20462dfd.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4008/4385445272_4e20462dfd_b.jpg)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2615/4384682879_058110bf47.jpg (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2615/4384682879_058110bf47_b.jpg)
Bottom of the leaf, shows veining better than top

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4023/4385445754_509ee4f3cc.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4023/4385445754_509ee4f3cc_b.jpg)
Branch end, buds

bekajoi
February 24th, 2010, 12:56 PM
Oh and for the problem's time frame, they were like that when we moved here last July. Did not see the house in the spring at all last year. I can certainly wait it out and see if there's anything to be done... was mostly concerned that any pest issue or disease might cause issue with other plants?

I had tentatively planned a root garden area under the shade of the trees in the back, but nothing much will be growing near them at all.

(Random note... I love our ONE ghetto neighbor who had 1 million cars and parks on the lawn, just behind the bare tree...)

lorna-organic
February 24th, 2010, 12:59 PM
It looks like Chinese Elm to me. This type of tree is notorious for the number of volunteers they seed.

Absolute_Skeletor
February 24th, 2010, 01:16 PM
Cant see the buds as close as i like, it does have alternating leaf scars..

What are these round fruit looking things still attached...

Does it look like this...

This first picture is Pin Cherry
http://www.extension.umaine.edu/mainetreeclub/images/factsheets/Pin_Cherry.jpg



Elm seeds may look something like this..

This is slippery elm

http://www.appalachianforest.org/images/slippery_elm_fruit.jpg

Absolute_Skeletor
February 24th, 2010, 01:19 PM
I sent pics of it to a friend from my plant taxonomy class...If we are still having trouble i will consult with my professor lol

bekajoi
February 24th, 2010, 01:38 PM
Sweet! I'm PRETTY sure it's not a cherry tree. I've seen nothing cherry-ish at all (I've come across a few cherry and wild plum trees and can spot where the animals have eaten), and the one in the backyard is quite tall. Tall and lean and sadly too close to the house. It will have to come down so the roots don't grow into the foundation. :( I don't think cherry trees grow quite so tall after only being in place 20-30 years. Maybe a full size let go would get as big as the front yard one, but I don't think it's AS tall.

Hmm, chinese elm, looking at the pics and the lower branches seem to start a lot lower than mine do. The low branches are 4.5-5' off the ground, easy viewing height for me, I'm 5'5".

Slippery elm... http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/FORESTRY/commontr/slippery.htm The leaves and the branch formation looks about right. Just never seen the seed pod things. But again, there's a squirrel IN that tree, might be why it was chosen. Could be the squirrel that planted the trees out back LOL!

Absolute_Skeletor
February 24th, 2010, 01:43 PM
Sweet! I'm PRETTY sure it's not a cherry tree. I've seen nothing cherry-ish at all (I've come across a few cherry and wild plum trees and can spot where the animals have eaten), and the one in the backyard is quite tall. Tall and lean and sadly too close to the house. It will have to come down so the roots don't grow into the foundation. :( I don't think cherry trees grow quite so tall after only being in place 20-30 years. Maybe a full size let go would get as big as the front yard one, but I don't think it's AS tall.

Hmm, chinese elm, looking at the pics and the lower branches seem to start a lot lower than mine do. The low branches are 4.5-5' off the ground, easy viewing height for me, I'm 5'5".

Slippery elm... http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/FORESTRY/commontr/slippery.htm The leaves and the branch formation looks about right. Just never seen the seed pod things. But again, there's a squirrel IN that tree, might be why it was chosen. Could be the squirrel that planted the trees out back LOL!



Is there any way i can get a in palm picture of one of those rounded things i saw on the branch... Hope im not being a pain in the butt..it may help..

I myself am leaning towards elm.

bekajoi
February 24th, 2010, 02:05 PM
Not a pain at all, I'd rather be sure! :) Got some bark pics for ya too! :) (All are housed here, if you're sharing and want to make it easier. Once you're on a single pic, click "all sizes" to see the bigger ones than they show automatically. http://www.flickr.com/photos/35796456@N05/sets/72157622142308702/

Not 100% sure about SLIPPERY elm unless it was brought in, as it's not entirely native here. Could have been a nursery tree though!

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4060/4384829985_389df8ffbe.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4060/4384829985_389df8ffbe_b.jpg)
bark...

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4049/4385592730_d1e52b62e5.jpg (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4049/4385592730_d1e52b62e5_b.jpg)
buds in hand

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2795/4385593122_44c5b7c185.jpg (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2795/4385593122_44c5b7c185_b.jpg)
Height of front tree to house, back trees just over the red fence that are almost half again as tall as the house are the same type of tree with the same leaf nommer.

libsead
February 24th, 2010, 05:47 PM
It looks like an emerald ash to me. I have 2 of them If so beware of emerald ash borers. The link below is great for identifing ash trees.:D
http://www.emeraldashborer.info/identifyashtree.cfm

bekajoi
February 24th, 2010, 06:57 PM
Looked at the link, has alternating leaves rather than opposite leaves. And I see no ash scars. Hmm.

Not chambered, so it's not a black walnut.
Bark and leaves wrong to be a hickory.
Only thing wrong about the elm (from what I've seen) is the seed stuff. But I could have missed it. When does it seed?

libsead
February 24th, 2010, 07:20 PM
Maybe you could take the limb to your local nursery? Well it's a good thing it is not a ash because they are a (wait for it) pain in the ash.:D

bekajoi
February 25th, 2010, 10:42 AM
heeheehee! :D

mjc
February 25th, 2010, 11:27 AM
A lot of elms set seed in the spring...before July.

So, if it flowered/set seed in the spring it is NOT a Chinese elm. But it could be a hybrid that is tolerant to Dutch Elm Disease. Also, if it is a hybrid many set seed but some don't.

Here's a list of various elms...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elm_species,_varieties,_by_common_name

Absolute_Skeletor
February 25th, 2010, 11:50 AM
Im looking through my 101 Indiana Tree book though this may not be from indiana the book is a great tree reference...Im pretty sure this is some kind of elm..Im not sure if those seeds would be similar to say the "slippery elm" seeds picture i posted or not...Leafs make me want to say elm....round things on branch are throwing me off.

Absolute_Skeletor
February 25th, 2010, 11:56 AM
ill just write out some elm descriptions from my 101 tree book

Regarding american elm Ulmus americana "A handsome medium to large tree (to 100 ft tall, 4 ft diameter) with a broad, rounded crown. Open grown trees have diverging limbs and drooping branches, resulting in a vase shaped growth form. Bark has alternating brown and white layers.

Twigs
Twigs slender, smooth to hairy, red-brown to gray. Leaf scars alternate, half round. Buds 1/4 inch pointed with small red brown hairy scales.

fruits
fruits dry in dense clusters, flattened oval (<1/2 inch); a circular papery wing surrounds seeds; wing hairy edged and notched at top...Wind scattered in spring..

Absolute_Skeletor
February 25th, 2010, 11:58 AM
"Slippery Elm" "The only elm with leaves having asymmetrical bases and rough sand papery upper surface"

so rules out slippery as you said

Absolute_Skeletor
February 25th, 2010, 12:02 PM
Rock-Elm;Cork Elm

Ulmus thomassii

Twigs usually with corky ridges or wings. Leaves alternate, simple on smooth leaf stalk.

Bark: Thick grayish with wide fissures separating broad flat scaly ridges.

Another interesting possibility....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulmus_%27Morton%27

Denninmi
February 25th, 2010, 12:08 PM
A lot of elms set seed in the spring...before July.

So, if it flowered/set seed in the spring it is NOT a Chinese elm. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elm_species,_varieties,_by_common_name

You're right -- the only problem is, what many people CALL a Chinese Elm isn't the true Chinese, or lacebark, Elm, it's just actually Siberian Elm. Why the confusion originated, I'm not sure.

Denninmi
February 25th, 2010, 12:11 PM
Leafs make me want to say elm....round things on branch are throwing me off.

The round things are the flower buds. They'll pop as soon as the freezing weather ends.

I'd be willing to bet my hat that this is Siberian Elm. It looks just like the ones I planted in a windrow about 15 years ago.

mjc
February 25th, 2010, 12:14 PM
If it is one of the hybrids grown for the landscaping trade, it will be nearly impossible to pin down which elm it is. And the more I look at it, the more I think it is an elm with probably some Siberian parentage, at the very least.

Absolute_Skeletor
February 25th, 2010, 12:26 PM
THANK YOU THANK YOU...

I believe you nailed this one

I googled siberian elm buds.... here they are

http://natureinquiries.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/siberian-elm-buds-b.jpg


Siberian elm distribution according to USDA
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=ULPU
http://plants.usda.gov/maps/large/UL/ULPU.png

Bekajoi lists her location as Colorado so ill include the distribution map for that state

http://arcmapper.sc.egov.usda.gov/PlantMapper.asp?h=306&w=400&cmd=newmap&state=08&county=08009_08013_08033_08041_08045_08059_08069_0 8077_08083_08085&symbol=ULPU


The round things are the flower buds. They'll pop as soon as the freezing weather ends.

I'd be willing to bet my hat that this is Siberian Elm. It looks just like the ones I planted in a windrow about 15 years ago.

bekajoi
February 25th, 2010, 02:38 PM
We looked at the house late May, and moved in Mid-July and saw no seeds, but that doesn't mean it isn't just a non-seeding one or that my squirrel is extra thorough.

The branches in the back were absolutely drooping, I had to trim them up and out of the way. Got smacked in the face three times too many LOL.

Some parts are red-brown, others are grey... good so far. :)

And yes the buds are exactly right! Well hey! I didn't know it was going to flower in the spring! Very cool. :) I think we've got it!! Siberian-ish elm (if not 100%), gives me something to go by for the future. :)

Can't wait to see the buds when it warms up, and it totally makes sense that the squirrels picked those trees.

Thanks guys!! :D :D