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Zarkerc
March 4th, 2010, 07:58 PM
Hi, I would like to learn how to crossbreed my pepper plants. They are both of the Habanero family. If anyone knows how to do this please help =P

SpaceAge
March 4th, 2010, 08:04 PM
good luck with that question on this forum ... ! :rolleyes:
Welcome to I-dig !

Space'

silverseeds
March 4th, 2010, 08:19 PM
Peppers are inbreeders, meaning self pollinating. However they READILY cross pollinate. not all inbreeders do.

based on the fact that they readily cross, you could "bag" them before the flower opens on two separate plants, that you intend to cross. then the day they open, use a q-tip to move pollen between the parents. Many inbreeders, like tomatoes for example, you often have to open the flower manually because they self pollinate before they even open. so you might want to look up tomato crossing, just to be SURE the fruit was a result of the pollen transfer you did, rather then self pollination. but if you do it when the flowers first open, being that peppers easily cross, likely it will work.......

Id really recommend, how to breed your own vegetables, by carol deppe.

Zarkerc
March 4th, 2010, 08:48 PM
Thanks! This helps alot. :)

G. Gordon Gumbo
March 4th, 2010, 11:51 PM
To get a complete cross pollination of all the seed ova you will have to emasculate the flowers on one plant before they open and collect pollen from the other parent after it opens and apply the collected pollen to the female part of the emasculated flowers on the intended seed mother plant. This way you know that 100% of the seeds will be F1 hybrid seeds.

By waiting until the flowers open and then using a Q-tip to gather and transfer pollen, you will not know which of the seeds are cross pollinated and which are self-pollinated.


GGG

Darth Slater
March 5th, 2010, 12:28 AM
Wow, not alot of hoopla, but to the point ,thanks GGG!

Darth

jtcm05
March 5th, 2010, 08:17 AM
Peppers are inbreeders, meaning self pollinating. However they READILY cross pollinate. not all inbreeders do.

based on the fact that they readily cross, you could "bag" them before the flower opens on two separate plants, that you intend to cross. then the day they open, use a q-tip to move pollen between the parents. Many inbreeders, like tomatoes for example, you often have to open the flower manually because they self pollinate before they even open. so you might want to look up tomato crossing, just to be SURE the fruit was a result of the pollen transfer you did, rather then self pollination. but if you do it when the flowers first open, being that peppers easily cross, likely it will work.......

Id really recommend, how to breed your own vegetables, by carol deppe.

As SpaceAge said, good luck getting accurate answers. :rolleyes:

SS, your statements are nearly 100% false. Why not just stick to what you know?

If you wait until the blossoms open you will almost never get a good cross.

silverseeds
March 5th, 2010, 08:59 AM
As SpaceAge said, good luck getting accurate answers. :rolleyes:

SS, your statements are nearly 100% false. Why not just stick to what you know?

If you wait until the blossoms open you will almost never get a good cross.

:confused: actually my answer isnt wrong at all???? not a single percent, let alone <nearly 100> did you read it????

I told them they really need to open the flowers themselves, and pollinate before they pollinate themselves. IF THEY WANT TO ?BE SURE. BUT you can indeed get results with a plant such as peppers, by waiting until the flowers open. want to claim Im wrong??? then save two varieties side by side, without doing anything to seclude the blossoms...... :rolleyes:...... so what are you pretending I am wrong about, the idea theres ONLY one way??? sorry my friend there is NOT only one workable way.....

heck if this person has only 2 types and doesnt want to make a single cross they could just as easily, leave them be, and plant heavily the next year, and thin when plants are big enough to tell if it is either of the mother plants, or a f1.....

It appears you think you said something different then me. Do you really think you did??? You said your not likely to get a good cross this way, when indeed you WILL get crosses, but I told them that results are NOT a given with that method, and standard tomatoe breeding methods would be ideal. Opening the flowers manually etc..... then mentioned a book which will give various methods.....

Many projects are done in a more passive way as I described. It saves time and effort. Depending on the goals of a project, it certainly is a workable way to approach it. but like I said, if you want to KNOW the exact results, and take a more direct path, follow the basic methods for tomato crosses, which are readily available online.

No offense to spaceage here, but him saying your likely to not get good crossing info here is funny by itself, he thinks his melons, and cukes cross. no one can apparently shake him from this stance.

what do you think I am wrong about???? :rolleyes:

VBLACK
March 5th, 2010, 09:37 AM
Let the drama begin! :D I planted chili Piquine on one side of the house and Jalapeno on the other end of the house and 2 years later I had a Jalepiqune. So cute bigger than a Piquine and much much smaller than a Jalepeno.
Here is a picture of a chili piquine and one of a Jalepiqune.

G. Gordon Gumbo
March 5th, 2010, 12:46 PM
Very cool, VB. Cute little pepper too!

Yes, peppers are generally known as the skanky strumpets of the solanaceae ... loose ladies of the nightshades.


GGG

redneckplanter
March 5th, 2010, 01:25 PM
As SpaceAge said, good luck getting accurate answers. :rolleyes:

SS, your statements are nearly 100% false. Why not just stick to what you know?

If you wait until the blossoms open you will almost never get a good cross.

well i can't believe i'm saying this?
but why is SILVER wrong?????
i've never messed with peppers......
lol
seems like a really negative answer to HIS Attempt at a thorough post?
i'll be following this one with intrest...
hopefully it stays civil?
ANY PEPPERHEADS OUT THERE ABLE TO CHIME IN?

Absolute_Skeletor
March 5th, 2010, 02:02 PM
I have some instructions on how to do tomatoes..i hadnt messed with crossing peppers..

There is a good reply on this topic here that would help http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/hybrid/msg0615382710776.html


This is about tomatoes but it will show you flower parts which may help you
http://www.kdcomm.net/~tomato/Tomato/xingtom.html

Love My Garden
March 5th, 2010, 02:08 PM
Hi, I would like to learn how to crossbreed my pepper plants. They are both of the Habanero family. If anyone knows how to do this please help =P

Just plant them next to one another....nature will do the rest!!!

VBLACK
March 5th, 2010, 02:09 PM
Very cool, VB. Cute little pepper too!

Yes, peppers are generally known as the skanky strumpets of the solanaceae ... loose ladies of the nightshades.


GGG

There was certainly some riskie business going on there :D I saved some seeds from those and they are now growing in my laundry room. I cant wait!

G. Gordon Gumbo
March 5th, 2010, 02:20 PM
Just plant them next to one another....nature will do the rest!!!

Only if and when and on which flowers that the natural pollinator insects are active ... and then not necessarily will complete cross pollination occur. Quite the contrary, you will get random results from low to moderate percentages of crosses. Luck of the draw.

Again:

To get a complete cross pollination of all the seed ova [in any one flower structure] you will have to emasculate [remove the anther cones from] the flowers on one plant [that you intend to manually cross pollinate] BEFORE they open and collect pollen from the other parent [anther cones] AFTER it opens and apply the collected pollen to the female part [the stigma at the top end of the style] of the emasculated flowers [which should be tagged] on the intended seed mother plant. This way you know that 100% of the seeds will be F1 hybrid seeds. By waiting until the flowers open and then using a Q-tip to gather and transfer pollen [as recommended by another member in Post #3], you will not know which of the seeds are cross pollinated and which are self-pollinated [much the same as you will not know which seeds are "naturally" cross pollinated if you simply plant the two varieties side by side and "let nature take its course."] GGG

Hope that is a little clearer with the clarifying information added between the [brackets] :::smile::: Also, with Absolute Skeletor's linked information, really there should be no need for more guidance other than maybe googling up a video or slide show on how to emasculate a pepper flower. I only have such videos and slide shows for tomato blossoms.


GGG

G. Gordon Gumbo
March 5th, 2010, 02:27 PM
But, just in case ...

Only if and when and on which flowers that the natural pollinator insects are active ... and then not necessarily will complete cross pollination occur. Quite the contrary, you will get random results from low to moderate percentages of crosses. Luck of the draw.


"In the case of pepper, the frequency of cross-pollination is greater than for tomato. For example, cross pollination occurs between 8 and 37% of the time, and as great as 68% has been reported (Greenleaf, 1986; George, 1999). A factor that affects the percentage of cross pollination is the relative position of the stigma and anthers, which depends on the genotype. The presence of pollinating insects and receptivity of the stigma 2 to 3 days before pollen shed in some cultivars is another factor (George, 1999)."

Source:
http://www.ag.ohio-state.edu/~seedbio/HCS630_files/May%2017/tomato%20and%20pepper,%20text.pdf



GGG

G. Gordon Gumbo
March 5th, 2010, 02:35 PM
This is for tomato blossoms, but may be helpful for folks wanting to properly emasculate and apply pollen to a pepper blossom:

Slide show: http://www.avrdc.org/LC/tomato/hybrid/01title.html

Text and pictures in PDF:
http://www.avrdc.org/LC/tomato/seedhybrid.pdf


GGG

silverseeds
March 5th, 2010, 02:37 PM
There was certainly some riskie business going on there :D I saved some seeds from those and they are now growing in my laundry room. I cant wait!

just to further the topic here a bit, and in case your not aware.....

Any plants you grew last year, that were a result of a cross were F1s, or hybrids.... If in controlled conditions you continued to make the same cross(including which on was the "mother"), those f1s would always be the same.....

Now is where it starts getting interesting. this year you will start seeing variations ranging the full range of genetics of both parents. If you grow 100 seeds, youll have 100 different plants. You may even find traits you didnt realize either parent carried. there are many methods for stabilizing plants. Often involving more controlled crossing of the plants which you liked for whatever reasons.

Since peppers are inbreeders BUT outcross easily enough, the simplest way for this project would be to select all the ones you liked and bag the blossoms. this will make sure they self pollinated(and DIDNT get pollen from plants you didnt want involved). you would then grow that seed from that plant the next year, and you will continue to get variations for awhile, simply select the ones you like, and bag blossoms...... OR you could select a few you like, get rid of the others, and let those do their thing, some will cross others wont. Just keep selecting for the traits you wanted..... culling the ones with undesirable traits is important, if your trying to end up with a new desirable variety down the line.....

You might also take the ones you like, and cross those on purpose. to further solidify traits you liked, or to one of the parents or other peppers entirely. Stabilizing a new variety, can take many courses of action. even successful breeders, will often choose diverging methods.

the simplest for this project would be to NOT let the ones you like cross pollinate, whether by seclusion(which is hard) or bagging blossoms. youd end up with a few lines doing it this way, depending on how many of the f2s you selected, and F3s etc..... you will find variation for many years to come. but with a little effort, you can end up with variety tailored to your tastes, and growing methods...

silverseeds
March 5th, 2010, 02:40 PM
This is for tomato blossoms, but may be helpful for folks wanting to properly emasculate and apply pollen to a pepper blossom:

Slide show: http://www.avrdc.org/LC/tomato/hybrid/01title.html

Text and pictures in PDF:
http://www.avrdc.org/LC/tomato/seedhybrid.pdf


GGG

yes controlled is better since you KNOW the variables, but is NOT mandatory in this instance.....

for the record according to the university of new mexico, some (not all) pepper populations get cross pollinated 80 percent of the time.....

G. Gordon Gumbo
March 5th, 2010, 02:46 PM
For the record, the recommended isolation distance for individual blocks of capsicum (pepper) varieties intended to stay pure bred is 500 feet minimum. Any less distance risks unacceptable percentages of cross pollination.

... cross pollination (in capsicum poplulations) occurs between 8 and 37% of the time, and as great as 68% has been reported (Greenleaf, 1986; George, 1999). ...
Source:
http://www.ag.ohio-state.edu/~seedbio/HCS630_files/May%2017/tomato%20and%20pepper,%20text.pdf

Which is to say, yet once again, that depending on natural cross pollination will not yield satisfactory results, in my opinion, when a home gardener with limited space has the goal of creating specific F1 crosses.


GGG

silverseeds
March 5th, 2010, 03:03 PM
If your point is its BETTER, for "specific" crosses... well of course... Only way to be 100 percent sure, of what your saved seed is.....

but how many gardeners would bother???? my point is you CAN set up workable projects, with good results, with a plant such as peppers, without making purposeful crosses. especially if the only cross you NEED to make is the initial one. Or a cross already occured and you want to play with it. heck it WILL happen unless you isolate, or bag blossoms, or some other means of isolation.

People make many of these things harder then they need be. Many well known breeders use such methods when they are able, and instead of making sure they get the right cross, they passively check to see if A cross was made later, then work with this material.

we really are debating apples to apples here....

G. Gordon Gumbo
March 5th, 2010, 03:49 PM
I think the original question has been answered sufficiently and correctly without wandering any farther off topic. I've been known to argue with a box of rocks, but not today.


GGG

jtcm05
March 5th, 2010, 03:51 PM
:confused: actually my answer isnt wrong at all???? not a single percent, let alone <nearly 100> did you read it????

I told them they really need to open the flowers themselves, and pollinate before they pollinate themselves. IF THEY WANT TO ?BE SURE.

Yes I did read it, and no, you said this...

, you could "bag" them before the flower opens on two separate plants, that you intend to cross.

Why in the world would you bag the blossom on a self-pollinating species that you plan to cross? By the time the bag would do any good, it will be too late. Stick to bagging blossoms that you plan to save seed from.

then the day they open, use a q-tip to move pollen between the parents.

If you do not emasculate the blossom before it opens and wait until it opens by itself it will more than likely self.


No offense to spaceage here, but him saying your likely to not get good crossing info here is funny by itself, he thinks his melons, and cukes cross. no one can apparently shake him from this stance.

what do you think I am wrong about???? :rolleyes:

Well, he was right. You really should stick to what you know. There must be something.

silverseeds
March 5th, 2010, 04:16 PM
:confused: If only you knew my friend.... lol

anyway the reason to bag them before they open, is if you want specific crosses, BUT dont want to bother to open up the flowers and emasculate, as you generally do with tomatoes....

Essentially with peppers you CAN do it as you would with squash lets say. the blossoms are bagged so you know pollen you didnt want isnt included. BUT like I said and we all know, peppers are self pollinating. I was describing how to do the project in a more passive way....

so yes many of the seeds would be selfed with this method, and many more WOULD be the cross you desired. that is if you used a q-tip as I described in the first post. Otherwise just letting it happen is a perfectly workable solution in this instance, if your willing to work with any peppers which MIGHT be involved.....

So when you grow the plants out, if you did it this way, some plants would clearly be from one parent, some the other(if you took seed from both) and some from crosses that WILL happen, especially if you use a q-tip...... (although obviously not if you bagged blossoms, and didnt use a q-tip, I feel the need to be precise, that would be the way to grow things close by and NOT have crosses. even a dab of glue at the right time can do this ;))

the original poster, asked HOW, I told them a workable simple solution, any level gardener CAN do...... I also told them controlled crosses will give more direct results, and told them of a book which highlights BOTH, and other methods......

Im starting dozens of breeding projects of most any food type which will grow here, even marginally...... Im working with a well known breeder, who among other things, told me how to do passive projects, so you can give more focus to more important ones..... he has bred plants for decades, with many successes including many considered impossible or near so. seed companies all over the world have his works......

to imply here is ONLY one method for this particular project, is just wrong. the poster made a single post as of the time I answered, I have NO IDEA their level of gardening experience, so I laid out the simplest, easiest to explain WORKABLE method, then said a better approach would be to do as people do with tomatoes, and mentioned a book with such info, and the fact such info is readily accessible online with a simple search. the poster easily might not be aware of this. basically I gave them ALL info anyone else did or a path to find it.....

again.... what am I wrong about???? It is clearly YOU who doesn't truly understand the topic at hand..... such a method would be near impossible with tomatoes. or beans, peas etc.... but tomatillos, peppers, ground cherries, runner beans, and others although they are inbreeders, this remains a viable method.....

and ggg besides your post above, and this guy trying to mess with me for some reason.... no one has been off topic....

silverseeds
March 5th, 2010, 04:50 PM
Jtcm05--- It seems what you arent getting, is the fact Im not telling this IS the method to do it.... Im telling you its A method. Heck Im not even saying its the method I would use. There really never was anything to "debate"..... Ive just been clarifying the issue here....

Train
March 6th, 2010, 07:52 PM
Ya jtcm05 !
Certainly there isn't anything you could say
about silver seed that would be so bad that
it wouldn't be true.
Train

G. Gordon Gumbo
March 6th, 2010, 08:09 PM
Is that sunlight at the other end of the tunnel or the headlight of an oncoming Train?!?

Either way, the truth shines brightly!!!


GGG

jtcm05
March 6th, 2010, 08:11 PM
..... Ive just been clarifying the issue here....

Oh sure. :rolleyes: Are you serious? I think you've just confused the snot out of every poor soul who made the mistake of reading this godforsaken thread. Maybe next time you could just quote the university of new mexico verbatim and save everyone the trouble.

silverseeds
March 6th, 2010, 08:44 PM
Looks like you guys scared poor zarkerc away....

Nothing I said was wrong. It is a workable method that a well known breeder explained to me, so as to run a more passive BUT still viable project. hard to imagine someone who moderates a breeding forum thinking anything I said was wrong. but whatever......

Personal attacks over me mentioning a second viable method to breeding peppers??? seriously??? While your trying to build a breeding fourm??? Bizarre. Darth invited me over there, I guess its good I hesitated before joining.

About the UP TO 80 percent crossing, that came from the book seed to seed by susanne ashworth.....

For the record I believe carol deppe also mentions the method I laid out in her book as well. theres more then one way to skin a cat in this case......

either way I know a breeder, whos done much more then most, and hes used this method when he can.....

Corn Freek 2
March 25th, 2010, 06:50 PM
OH ya pepper's cross pollinate!

I am growing some super hot habinero x serrano peppers now.

they are 2 in to 3 in long and thin but are sooo hot I think around 175,000 scoville or better.

this plant is 4 years old and here is the cross fruit.

as far as I know its the only one of its kind!

NightMist
March 25th, 2010, 07:24 PM
You guys are a bad influence on my children!

Daughter3 peeked over my shoulder in time to see G.Gordon's first post, and started THINKING!:eek:

Now she is in rhapsodies over the potential to cross a tomato with a deadly nightshade, and then when she has that stabilized crossing it to a scotch bonnet.

I have tried to explain that though they are indeed all in the same family it does not quite work like that. She just gave her version of her fathers patented mad scientist laugh and cackled, "think of the squirrels!"

You people are EVIL!
Evil I say! Evil!

:D

G. Gordon Gumbo
March 25th, 2010, 09:03 PM
OH ya pepper's cross pollinate!

I am growing some super hot habinero x serrano peppers now. They are 2 in to 3 in long and thin but are sooo hot I think around 175,000 Scoville or better. This plant is 4 years old and here is the cross fruit. As far as I know its the only one of its kind!

While hybridization of peppers almost always within a species, some interspecific crosses have been accomplished especially C. annuum by C. chinense.

How did you accomplish the cross between Habanero (C. chinense) and Serrano (C. annuum)?

What generation is the pepper you show in the linked photograph? When you say the plant is 4 years old, are you saying the plant is the original F1? You haven't saved seeds and grown out the segregating and recombining filial generations yet?

Interesting looking pepper, by the way.


GGG

GardeNerd
March 26th, 2010, 01:02 AM
Now she is in rhapsodies over the potential to cross a tomato with a deadly nightshade, and then when she has that stabilized crossing it to a scotch bonnet.

I have tried to explain that though they are indeed all in the same family it does not quite work like that. She just gave her version of her fathers patented mad scientist laugh and cackled, "think of the squirrels!"


By gummy, now you've got me thinking. Pipe tobacco that tastes of tomatoes.... :cool: Or maybe tomatoes with nicotine in them, to woo the judges at the county fair....

"I say, lad, I must have some more of your tomatoes! I simply must! Name your price!"

Amei
March 26th, 2010, 09:08 AM
CornFreak2,

Do you have any seeds for that hybrid? That is a very interesting looking pepper. How is the flavor?

Train
March 26th, 2010, 11:42 AM
Hi, I would like to learn how to crossbreed my pepper plants. They are both of the Habanero family. If anyone knows how to do this please help =P

Ya
In short, if you are serious about doing this
put you money on G.G.G.
His advice is right on as always.
Train

Corn Freek 2
March 26th, 2010, 01:17 PM
While hybridization of peppers almost always within a species, some interspecific crosses have been accomplished especially C. annuum by C. chinense.

How did you accomplish the cross between Habanero (C. chinense) and Serrano (C. annuum)?

What generation is the pepper you show in the linked photograph? When you say the plant is 4 years old, are you saying the plant is the original F1? You haven't saved seeds and grown out the segregating and recombining filial generations yet?

Interesting looking pepper, by the way.


GGG

2 plants were very close together and Kept the seed from both..the current hybrid is 4 years old.

lost the 2 parent plants a year ago.


it is the only plant that germinated of 200 seeds.


it is the original f1.

in the last 3 months the peppers now have seeds.

3 and a half years of peppers with out viable seeds from this f1.

I have about 150 seeds that look strong and viable.

I drink sriracha like water...eat serrano peppers like candy, but this pepper makes me hiccup with 1 minute. then uncontroled drooling.


My bhut jolkias have sprouted and this year ill see if cross pollination will be a reality in this season.

Absolute_Skeletor
March 27th, 2010, 11:42 PM
Im loving this thread

Corn Freek 2
March 28th, 2010, 03:03 PM
As I said...

here are the 4 year old f1 from the habenero x seranno chili pepper.

sould I call This new hybrid? uuhh...serhabano? haberona? ??;)

Corn Freek 2
March 28th, 2010, 03:19 PM
I gotta resize all the pics..

the taste? well it comes on steady like a seranno..then keeps going..long lasting heat.

the taste of the pepper raw is like crunchy and earthy...with a firm shell.

after waiting 4 years its making seeds.

the plant is 4 to 5 feet tall.

the base steam has thorns.

very branchy.

the roasted pepper has a better hotter flavor.

Ive got about 100 seeds so far..going germinate in 4 days.

G. Gordon Gumbo
March 28th, 2010, 07:39 PM
Seranero.


GGG

nordicnacho
July 17th, 2013, 04:30 PM
bump

im going to give this a try this year

http://www.thechileman.org/guide_crossing_peppers.php

GunnarSK
July 18th, 2013, 05:30 AM
Very interesting thread, but I'll have to read up on peppers somewhere else before starting to grow them for earnest.

GrowYourHeirlooms
July 19th, 2013, 11:29 PM
I left a yellow fatalii and a red fatalii alone in the greenhouse two springs ago. They were within 12" of each other. I saved the yellow seed just to see what I would get..... I got yellow fatalii the next year. Go figure. Maybe they didn't like each other? Or maybe fatalii are just snobs!

nordicnacho
July 20th, 2013, 01:14 AM
I left a yellow fatalii and a red fatalii alone in the greenhouse two springs ago. They were within 12" of each other. I saved the yellow seed just to see what I would get..... I got yellow fatalii the next year. Go figure. Maybe they didn't like each other? Or maybe fatalii are just snobs!

or maybe the yellow is dominate? You never now what you get with a cross till you grow out the the f2s and thats if you know forsure they crossed

GrowYourHeirlooms
July 20th, 2013, 01:42 AM
Yeh I was kinda joking. I'm inclined to think they should have crossed, as I've had bells cross at farther distances. And I had lots of fans and insect activity. I did not grow them out this year as I was up north working on a community garden this summer. We will see on the next gen in 2014.