Sales Tax on Vegetable Seeds & Plants

[flowerpower]

I called the NY state Dept of taxation yesterday. I could not understand why I was charged state sales tax on lettuce seeds. Lettuce is a vegetable and there's no tax on vegetables in NY.

After 20 minutes, and speaking to the dept supervisor, I find out there IS tax on vegetable seeds and plants. I asked what the difference was between a head of lettuce and the seeds. They have "no idea" but "that's the law".

What are the policies in other places? The law in NY seems to contradict itself. Or is it me?

[Sprocket]

Flower,
We pay the same here in Michigan as far as seeds go. I do not pay sales tax....as of yet ; ) if I buy them out of state. There is also a difference between grocery foods and foods that you buy deli style or restaurant style here. We do not pay sales tax on groceries, however let them heat that chicken up for you in their microwave and it earns the state an extra 6%. GO figure!! Sometimes food is not food, it is politics.
Kim

[flowerpower]

Sprocket, I worked for a very lg supermarket chain for many years. I know that some foods have tax in NY. "Prepared" foods like roasted chickens etc, soda, candy, all have tax.

I guessed the law changed at some point. The tax "rule" was kind of loosely worded anyway. If you could eat it, don't tax it. So seeds or starts of veggies and herbs had no tax, but flower seeds were taxable. I'd be the first one arguing that pansies and nasturtiums are so edible. lol

Between state and local taxes, we pay about 8 1/2 percent. Some counties are even higher.

[zebraman]

I experienced the same thing on Scarlet Runner Beans here in CA.But then again it was 8.5 cents.WHO CARES?

[mommagoose]

If you live in NY, you live in the land of taxation. Never fear New York will eventually find a way to tax the air we breath. Soon all my chickens will be taxed as they stand in line waiting for their RFID. God Bless America.

[PhilosopherStorm]

The average subject of the US crown pays 52% of their income in some form of tax. Add to this idiotic decisions like the supreme court decision (1936 I believe) that tomatoes are VEGETABLES, not fruit, strictly for taxation purposes. Certainly the use to which this ill gotten gain goes to is reason enough to care, as well as the fact that taxation is in direct contradiction with property rights (which were also shot down by the Supreme Court recently in the Kelo decision).

The better alternative is to trade seeds and plants where possible. Many gardening clubs etc. have resources to this end..

[GreenCap]

YIKES ZEBRAMAN- It's attitudes like yours that are ruining this country. Don't we pay enough taxes already?

[zebraman]

Hey Greencap;I am a Single Male,47,And I make over 100k a year.I do pay taxes and don't cheat on them either.I am left with way more than I need.I spend less than I make which is the real key to sucess and hapiness.The more taxes you pay means more hand outs for Hippies,and free health care for Illegals.You gotta love it.

[PhilosopherStorm]

Zebraman,

So when a theif comes into your home and only takes half of your stuff, do you figure "hey it's all good.. he only too half, I am left with way more than I need?"

Even if this is your own reaction (I honestly cannot imagine that it would be) what about those of us who are most penalized by taxation? Those on the lower end of the income scale?

[zebraman]

Hey Guys;Go to Graduate School and then you can get a Real Job.The Federal Govt.is not a Theif.Theives Are the Loser's in Life that rely on the Govt.for Handouts.I would think with all the posts you leave here You would Understand this.I also lived in England and Antwerp,Belgium.Taxation is 80 percent.Actually "They" take less than 20 percent and if You can't live on 80k a year,then something is wrong!

[JereGettle]

I agree some and disagree some... right down the middle here :)

[stonysoil]

i once operated a greenhouse in new york state and was told to collect sales tax on flower plants only not veggies i think if its purpose is for food consumption there is no tax.. how would that apply to edible flowers lol or vegetables such as hycanth bean used for ornamentals.. i

[zebraman]

Hey Stonysoil;Theyr'e Taxed.-The Exception Does Not disprove the Rule.

[PhilosopherStorm]

Those who take property which is not theirs are theives. It is irrational to exclude government arbitrarily from the nature of theft and property?

BTW I've been to graduate school. Contrary to your implication, that does not guarentee an income much less a high income. Then too, just because you decided to pursue money this does not mean that everyone else must pursue a similar path. Nor does it justify stealing from others. Property taken from someone who makes a little is just as much theft as property taken from those who make a great deal..

I cannot help but notice that you did not answer the question about losing half of your stuff being justified because it was only half.. .

A check on the math.. if taxation is 80% percent as you said, then the government is not taking merely 20% but rather are taking 80%, which means you have only 20K left to live on, not 80K...

All of which still points to the unjustice of the theft.. .

[zebraman]

Hey Storm;I said Taxation in Europe was 80 % here in the good old US its 20%.So what I'm left with is 80%.Life is what you make of it.I live in Paradise.You have to work hard to have a Bad day here.If you are not happy with your life its up to you to make the changes.Good Luck.-

[PhilosopherStorm]

Uh Z you seem to be overlooking or assuming that taxation in the US is voluntary.. It isn't. Your property is stolen regardless of your desire one way or the other.

As for your 20% figure, you are grossly mistaken. THe average subject of the US government pays at least 52% of their income in some form of tax. Perhaps you are merely counting your local sales tax?

What this means is that for half of the year you do not work for your family, your self, or for your future, but instead for the government, as a slave. The government tells you what percentage of your labor it will take, and you have no choice but to have this stolen from you (before you ever get to see the money) else go to prison.

This is what you call fair and a "good day."

Call me strange, but I prefer honesty, charity, freedom, reason and JUSTICE! These make up a good day.

[GreenCap]

I agree with you philosopher, What I really hate is having social security taken from me when I already know I will not be getting it back, talk about stealing, although on another thread I remember you comparing a family getting food stamps or gov. assistance with stealing but the way I see it, If someones husband worked hard and had taxes, social security and all that taken(stolen) from him his whole life then dies and his widow uses his social security to raise the kids with well I don't see it as that person stealing, It is like if someone takes something from me and then I go get it back well that is not stealing to me. Now with that being said, I don't think it is ok for someone to just be lazy and live on welfare either, but if they got laid off and had trouble finding work and had to rely on the government(not a good place to be)for assistance until they get work well I don't have a problem with that. Hey Zebra you said you work in cali selling to people and your whole objective in life was to con people (hippies and losers included)into buying some worthless item they don't need, yeah that sounds like a rewarding life to me, I can see why you would be so jolly.

[PhilosopherStorm]

Greencap,

But remember that no one is "stealing back" that which was theirs, but rather stealing from another whatever amount that they need. I have used the example of child molestation to make this point given the unfortunate fact that a great many child molestation victims become molestors themselves. So when this victim becomes the molestor he is not "stealing back" what is his, but rather is simply perpetuating the cycle of harming others.

As for getting into difficult situations such as you describe, remember that if we have the other half of our income which is stolen from us, we would be far better off less likely to have such difficult situations, and infinitely more able to handle such situations if they were to occur. We could go into the secondary costs of such regulation and taxation which increase the costs of necessities out of reach of some, but even without this you can see how doubling income would be sufficient even without the understanding of the more than halving the cost of living.. Combined this presents at least a four fold improvement over the current situation in the US. How often would you get into serious trouble if your income were quadrupled?

[GreenCap]

Yes, I can see it that way philosopher, I mean they deducted over 500.00 from my husbands last paycheck, That is 1000.00 a month not including sales tax and hidden taxes that he earned, and I am sure he could put it to better use than the government, but what can we (you and I) do, we are forced to pay taxes whether we like it or not? I think we should at least have the say so as to where our money goes. Most is just WASTED and a lot ends up in the pockets of corrupt government officials.

[PhilosopherStorm]

Well you are right about the waste. The US government calls any charity which gives out less than 50% of what it takes in a crime, an illegitimate organization, etc. Yet the US government fails to return even a fraction of a single percent to the people from whom it seizes the money..

On payroll deductions, do not forget that over half of the deductions do not show up because they are forced upon the employer so that they can be hidden from the worker..

[redbrick]

Philosopher, I think there is a detail that needs to be considered in you argument vis-a-vis perpetuating the cycle of harm. Assuming that, as a whole, we could eliminate the public draw from Federal assistance, it can be assumed that the Government would continue to add to the programs through taxation. The funds no longer going to assistance accounts would rather be funneled to more, arguably wasteful, programs such as "Study to Determine Why Cats Land on Their Feet." Considering taxation as a necessary evil that is not going away on our lifetimes, I believe that if an individual needs the assistance, is it not better to make use of it than to have it wasted on programs of little practical value?

Consider also, regardless of whether or not x amount of people have or have not made use of Federal assistance, the funds necessary will still be withdrawn through taxation. We, the people in question, have no reasonable, or unreasonable, chance to break the cycle.

This is just my point of view. No, I don't have all the answers, but then, even Solomon had to fudge it a couple of times, too. :D

[zebraman]

Hey Guys;I Love living in the USA and taking advantage of ALL the things that taxation brings to society at large.All you have to do is watch the News to see how good you really have it.When you see yourself as a helpless "Victim" the only thing you attract in your life is Victimisation.You do understand the concepts of tax shelters and invetments.Living below the poverty line to avoid paying taxes is really Stupid.The only person you really screw is yourself.And if you get sick who is going to pay your bill at the County Hospital?Taxpayers.And the thing about Grad.School and High income I did leave out the hard work and showing up and going for what you want part because if you have been to college you would hopefully already know this.The old phrase "Render onto Ceaser that which belongs to Ceaser" still applies today.

[PhilosopherStorm]

Redbrick,

The problem with that line of reasoning is that it provides the cover underwhich even more of our property, time, and labor are stolen from us by mindless bureaucrats and ill intentioned politicians. They claim "but it is for the poor" or "it is for the children" all the while pocketing the majority of the money...

Zeb,

I can easily guarentee that I have worked quite hard and certainly showed up to each and every class. I certainly went for what I wanted. NONE of your criteria necessitate high income. Because I went to college, and have a natural aptitude for critical thought, I know that your claims are patently false.. :)

I will gladly render unto Ceasar what is his... fortunately that amount is exactly ZERO in my life. The prisoner is not responsible for the roof over his head.... (This is an analogy in case you miss it.. )

[Timeless Rogue]

Amen to that ... could not have put it more succinctly ...

[redbrick]

Philosopher,

I still maintain this ignores the fact that the monies are still taken, regardless of actual social demands. Do we take the moral (and pyrrhic) high groung and leave ALL of it in Government's coffers? Or do we make use of available assistance when the situation demands?

To illustrate: If I am floundering in deep water, and you throw me a rope which I recognize as property which was stolen, I can refuse the assistance on moral grounds, but I will drown and the rope will still be stolen property. My point will be made, but at what cost?

[PhilosopherStorm]

Do we take the moral (and pyrrhic) high groung and leave ALL of it in Government's coffers? Or do we make use of available assistance when the situation demands?

If you are asking about personal choice, we each have to decide the price of principle and integrity. Mine is infinitely high, but then I simply value both extraordinarily.

As to the scenario, I would point out that it is disanalogous. You can grab the rope without depriving anyone else of the use of it in the future, and without reducing the rope. In the case of the property stolen from us, I cannot separate out my property unfortunately, so if I simply steal some of the whole, I am also a theif. Now worse yet if I take the handout, I am aiding and abetting the theif, even encouraging him to continue and likely expand his evil efforts.

The moral high ground would be to refuse to have your property stolen. This is also a very dangerous ground upon which to stand as the state has countless thugs with badges and a complete absence of reason and morality who will gladly kill you or imprison you for denying them your property and your labor. I mention this, because it seems clear that simply meekly accepting the fact that our government steals property is not the moral high ground as you describe it. I would refer to this as apathy, not principle.. (Which is not to say that apathy is not fully understandable in such a situation)

For me, I will not take stolen property. My integrity is worth far more to me than that..

[redbrick]

Ah, but then could one not argue that any food consumed, is an example of theft? For in actuality, the consumer has taken the life of another organism, be it plant or animal. Yes, I am taking the point to an extreme end, but it IS arguable.

Again, no I don't have the answers. And you are right, it does come down to personal choice and opinion. I must say, however, I think your views on theft are a bit extreme. This is just my opinion, not an attack.

[PhilosopherStorm]

For in actuality, the consumer has taken the life of another organism, be it plant or animal. Yes, I am taking the point to an extreme end, but it IS arguable.

Actually you are missing a vital element of the argument, that being moral agency. I can no more steal from a hammer than I can a tree. I may steal from the owner of a hammer or the owner of the tree, but non-moral agents/entities cannot have property rights. My table has no property... :) Therefore this cannot be analogous..

My observations on the nature of theft are in fact very conservative (not in the political sense), rather than extreme. What you may be taking issue with is that I refuse to simply stipulate that the state or some other prefered entity is exempt from examination by the same standard we logically use to judge all other actions. This creates a double standard the sole purpose of which is to give pretense to the illusion that theft is not theft if we like the theif... :)

The process is the very same we use to identify plants. We take the criteria for a given plant family, then narrow this to the specific type of plant. If the plant in question meets all of those criteria, then we recognize that as the particular type of plant.

The sad fact is that many people are unwilling to emply this very basic element of sound reasoning when it comes to certain aspects of our lives, including government actions. We note the definition of theft: The involuntary taking of property from its rightful owner. Then we note the nature of taxation. It is involuntary (no matter what the IRS pretends, we have no choice). It is certainly a taking of property. Finally there is no room for doubt that property belongs to its owner, not to the ones taking it.

Therefore logically and necessarily taxation is indeed theft. Nothing extreme about this at all, rather this is rudimentary, or perhaps even remedial logic.. :)

Imagine if we were trying to determine what kind of pea was growing in our garden. We would see which characteristics of the plant in question matched which set of criteria for each type of pea. When we found a match, we would simply accept it. This last step is the one that is hard to find in the case of government issues as far too many are willing to sacrifice not only their own principles, but reason itself for the false promises of some personal advantage.

Perhaps you meant "unusual" rather than extreme. As I already noted, the willingness to think critically on such issues is indeed uncommon, sad as this is.

As an aside, I would like to thank you for your civility and reasonableness in this discussion. Unfortunately this trait too is rare.

[flowerpower]

i once operated a greenhouse in new york state and was told to collect sales tax on flower plants only not veggies i think if its purpose is for food consumption there is no tax.. how would that apply to edible flowers lol or vegetables such as hycanth bean used for ornamentals.. i

Stonysoil, I knew that was the law in NY (at one point). I think the law changed because it's easier to just tax everything. I'd be the first one say that some flower is edible.


Zebraman, I know plenty of people who have Master's Degrees and do not make 100 grand a yr. In NYC, the teachers are required to obtain a Masters. They will never make more than 50 grand. That's not much in NYC where rents are close to $1000 per month for just a one bedroom.

[redbrick]

Hi Philosopher, this will be my last input to the discussion, as I believe we have gotten a bit off topic again. I can't argue your logic beyond what I already have, and wish to commend you on your desire to maintain your ethical stance. I would hope that you don't think less of me for continuing to pay taxes, unwillingly or apathetically.

This has been a rather spirited and enjoyable discussion. Thank you.

[PhilosopherStorm]

Anything taken by force from you leave no trace of guilt upon you. No one can reasonably blame anyone for giving in to the threat of violence and imprisonment.

[zebraman]

Hey Flowerpower;Why is the rent so cheap?In NY no less.There is a two bedroom house that is for rent on my street in Venice.The rent is listed at $8,975.00 a month.Does not include util.If I were you I would Jump on the 1 Bedroom for 1,000!I have alot of friends in Manhattan,they said"That they Wish".They said it was NOT in Manhattan.

[flowerpower]

Zebraman, Manhattan is much higher priced than the rest of the boroughs. My brother paid over 2000/mo when he lived there. And believe me, it was nothing to brag about. Especially the cockroaches.

Almost 9000 a month? That is unreal, but it doesn't surprise me. Landlords will charge what people are willing to pay. Are you really close to the beach? It must be really beautiful.I just love the smell of the ocean. There is a 3 bed farmhouse for rent down the road. You can watch the sheep graze from your deck and it has mountain views. with heat included, only 595.

[zebraman]

Hey Flowerpower;I live one block from the beach.I live in the Venice,in the Canals.Yes it is beautiful.Bought the house in the early eighties for 800k it is now worth 2.5 which isn't bad.One of my friend's sent me some listings in Manhattan last year for sale.It was really funny like an 8x12 foot room for that was selling for 200,000.+.HAD TO LAUGH.The breeze off the ocean is pretty constant which means the temp is rarely above 85 degrees.A mile east of here is a different story.The cheapest 1 bdrm here is 3,950 which is one of the original cottage type houses that was here before the Canals were rediscovered in the 80's ALL new houses are 3 story.You also need to realize that people who become teachers aren't doing so to have high pay.

[stonysoil]

what really bugs me is double taxation.. taxes on tax.. i wouldnt be surprised iif in the fduture the government sends inspectors to home gardens to quantify the yileds and charge sales tax accordingly

[redbrick]

Shh! Don't say that too loud, or they may hear you! It wouldn't surprise me either. Or, can you picture this headline: "State Police Discover Illegal Stand of Heirloom Tomatoes in Local Farmer's Corn Field"? I'd be laughing if the thought wasn't so scary!

[zebraman]

Hey Guys;The Govt.Prints and Distributes "the money".They determine the Value through the interest rate.At the end of the year They take Some of Their Money back as taxes for using their system.They aren't taking your money, their taking Their Money.

[PhilosopherStorm]

The ONLY way to get to that conclusion is to assume that YOU YOURSELF are the property of the state. If your labor is the government's labor, your body the government's body, then yes it would be "their" money. Short of that, any pretense to the contrary is simply dishonest.

For the record, technically slavery is outlawed in the US, except for that instituted by and run by the US Government.

[GreenCap]

the federal reserve is not owned by the federal government.

[exile3]

Paying taxes to this government shames us. If taxes went toward the common good, we could feel good about our contribution to society. But the taxes we turn over to the U.S. government are used to squash the common good in our own country, and create murder and mayhem in other sovereign nations.

BushFlu-the Real Pandemic

[PhilosopherStorm]

If taxes went toward the common good, we could feel good about our contribution to society.

Only if voluntary, which means that they could not be taxes...

While I agree that Bush is a huge problem, he is merely the latest in a long string of the same ilk.. Clinton was the same..

[zebraman]

Hey at least Clinton knew how to use a hoe.

[PhilosopherStorm]

ho, not hoe.. He has-------------------------------------------life.. just like almsot all politicians..

[PhilosopherStorm]

Which rule does stating objective fact break? Clinton ---------------------, rather has always "worked" for government. I asked both you and Andrew for clarification of the "rules" previously as there appears to be no standard at all, or at best double standards which allow direct intentional insults as long as they are directed at me by you (and others who agree with you) but do not allow statements of clearly objective and verifiable fact when made by me. I ask you again for clarification of this seeming double standard.

Just to add more strangeness to the mix, ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[mrtomatoexpres]

hi flowerpower you now we live in the greeddest city and state ny. wait till they tax us for having a veggie garden. :rolleyes:

[flowerpower]

If they charge by the square ft, I'll be screwed! lol My veggie plot is probably bigger than most NYC backyards. When I lived on Staten Island, I needed 3 gardens for all my plants. At least now I have room.

[mrtomatoexpres]

flowerpower people do not now how much it cost to live in ny. hows this for getting screwed by the mta and twu union. i got injured, i was to get knee surgery in jan of 99 i said no so i switched hospitals and had it in may 99. the mta sent there people to both hospitals in aug 99. they suspended me on dec 21 99. first thet said i forged doctor lines my union rep said sigh the paper. i said read the letter the secretey said she forgot to sigh the change no problem right wrong. the rep came out and said your suspended for trying to make money of the mta by getting a second opinoun on knee surg. i was out for 3 months the union made a deal with the mta. i got back 25 of 60 days. i had no way to say no. then in 2001 i had ankle surg. in april on june 21 i was fired. i told the rep i did not recieve a 60 day letter i got the 30 day. in 2004 i found out that the union had 5 days to file a greivece paper the never did. finally in 2004 i got the proof that i did not get the 60 day letter.the union still does not do anything for me. i live 3 moths in the back of a laundromat were i worked. now iam in my second boarding house. this one is way better then the first. i pay 450.00 a month for a room about9 by 9. i spoke to the tv stations and newspapers my story is not news worthy for if i was not white it would have been. iam not a racist i have friends that are black and they all say it was racisum. i have a freind that wrote a letter for me she nows how to write them. now i have more power. thank god for my veggie gardens its thraepy for me. when i tell people about this they do not beleive me i have the proof but cant get a lawyer to take my case. the docs found the 2 biggest disks in my back are bent. so i might need back surg. and another knee surg. but i cant stop living i just take it day by day. i hope soon to have my day in the sun. i want to let the people now about the way the mta and the union treat the workers that are injured on the job there are more horor stories then mine. :)

[mrtomatoexpres]

flowerpower the place you talk about to zebraman sound great

[flowerpower]

mrtomato, it is very beautiful up here. But getting more expensive all the time. We are not that far from Albany, so it is getting built-up pretty quickly. At least in my town, you cannot build on less than a 5 acre plot. Big spaces make for good neighbors.

Both my BF and another friend work for the MTA. BF is in Electrical on 65th in Bay Ridge and my friend is a bus mechanic over on SI. My BF also lost sick time due to the incompetance of his Union rep. He cannot even get a hearing about it. His rep is never available, nor does he return phone calls. Bet that sounds familiar, huh?

[mrtomatoexpres]

hi you bet it sounds familar. do you now who voted the gmo bill down in ny. you watch linktv or freespeechtv they have alot of shows about gmo i have dishtv. tell your friend do not give up thats what they want you to do. you want to trade seeds. :D

[flowerpower]

My BF is not that pushy and he won't let me deal with it. I am not as nice as he is. lol