How to Hoe, Hoe, Hoe!?

[TastyofHasty]

I am new to this hoeing stuff ... have a pick/hoe that has about a 3' handle ... best thing I've found so far to dig up dirt and rocks but oooooh! hard on the back! I THINK I'd like to have a tiller but can't afford $300 or $400 and apparently some people think the things are no good anyhow!

Any hoe recommendations? Or other recommendations for this thing called "cultivating?"

Also, any recommendations for dealing with "quack grass" ... I think it's called ... long yellowy-green grass that puts down roots every few inches and grows back like lightning ... covers over nice beds and makes a mockery of "lasagna gardening!" grows under and over cardboard and layers of newspaper, hay, or what have you.

As Voltaire said in Candide, we must learn to cultivate our garden! So I'm learning ... me, I think one good idea is find a hoe with a longer handle!

[gulfcoastguy]

You can use a garden fork to breakup small area. Just step on it then rock back on the handle, move over a few inches and repeat. as far as tillers go, you can rent them for the initial ground breaking.

[deb65802]

man I do not like hard back breaking garden work --so therefore i don't do it. In rocky places in my yard i make raisd beds right on top of them. I put lots of cardboard down the all the organic matter I can find including compost. You can close the beds in with sides or leave them open. Cardboard holds moisture and gives the worms a home while they build you all that rich yummy compost. The compost is on top and I plant my seeds right in it. I have a little hand held cultivator that I loosen the soil with, a shovel to spread compost and a wheelbarrow. Those are my tools. The city dumps wood chips, and sells by the truck load compost and zoodoo. for me gardening is supposed to be fun.

[tashak]

Hula hoe (sometimes goes by other names) is good for weeds--cut them off at the root, go back again and uproot the roots. You can use it either by push or by pull. It has a full length handle, and sometimes turns up new at feed stores, hardware stores, garden stores and big garden centers/big box garden nurseries. About two years ago they were c. $10-12 before tax, but with increasing prices for steel and timber, no idea what they are now.
It sounds as though perhaps you need a more comfortable length handle on whatever you use--is this a possibility?

[TastyofHasty]

Tashak, I'll do a search on "hula hoe" ... is it that thing with three tines blades that turn into one another? I've GOT one ... but this grass roots go 5" or more into the ground. I did get a "garden fork," at a junk shop, which is beautiful, an old-fashioned looking implement with a nice LONG and well-kept handle and thin slightly curved tines about 8" long ... okay, this is dumb ... but I didn't THINK of stepping on it in the ground ... :o thank you, gulfcoastguy! :p When people KNOW how to use a thing, sometimes they don't realize the abysmal ignorance of those who DON'T know! And the raised bed idea does not work because this long grass grows over, under, around and through the cardboard, compost, and all the other delicious ingredients in raised beds ... it LOVES raised beds ... loves the whole idea of lasagna gardening, 'cause it is evil!!! :rolleyes:

It even grows right around black plastic, and right over the top of it... so fast! You leave home for two weeks and return to find your garden has disappeared under a mass of slithering grass. Yep, gotta say, it is not TAME around here ... it's ZESTY and FULL OF LIFE and gol' darned FIERCE!

And tashak, a longer handle would probably be nice ... I just have to remember that this is valuable BACK EXERCISE! If I were going to a physical therapist, I'd have to pay THOUSANDS for this. Yes, end result ... if not strained or broken (and it won't be!) I will have a STRONG(ER) BACK. :) What I am doing is using my nice hefty tough but short-handled pick/hoe for about 30-45 minutes at a time ... then it's break time (like right now). Then back to business ... then quit at a reasonable time and go back to it tomorrow. I will say that UNDER this grass stuff is GREAT BLACK DIRT. I'd put peat down last year, and the dog ripped up some bags of sand that went in this particular area I'm dealing with right now ...

And I've decided NEVER AGAIN to put big rocks as a border for any beds (as I did before) because you can't MOW over them ... rocks provide a harbor for this stuff to sink down roots and spread from. Once I get these beds free and clear of this grass, I THINK the best thing to do is leave BARE DIRT all around the edge by about 1 foot and a half.

And ... as far as renting a tiller, town is 25 miles away, and we have a CAR, no TRUCK. Besides, I'm ENJOYING this back-exercise hoe business. Perhaps you-all could describe your favorite HOES and what the different sorts are good for? Hoe hoe hoe!!

[tashak]

Garden forks are good for your problem--but watch out if you have large rocks under the first few inches of soil. (My garage sale garden fork looks like it mutated with a sabertoothed tiger and a boar after encountering rocks underground here...,0 BOY.)
Sounds like weeks of work first on your place with the garden fork, then the hula hoe (has sort of an oblong doughnut-shaped blade, large hole in middle) afterward to deal with the babies.
Glad you are taking breaks in between bouts of work. Watch out for stressed knees, too. Do the same as you--intense half hour work (weather permitting), then a sit/lie down with computer or library book break, or at least change to less physically intensive work using other muscles.
Write up your previous post for a garden mag or column, why don't you, it is really good, and lots of us can identify with it!
Good luck.

[TastyofHasty]

Just looked up "hula hoe," never saw one like THAT before! Here's what the site I got on said:

Owner Reviews, Ratings, Comments and Criticism
This is a great lightweight hoe for use in a garden. I love it for weed control through the season. However, I also coordinate noxious weed control and need a scuffler for Teasle and thistle. This hoe just wasn't up to the task. My people destroyed three the first week out in the field, the week point being the way the knife connects. I am still looking for an ace hoe for filed and pasture work.

Okay ... so there's some kind of tough hoe called a "scuffler," and something called an "ace hoe" for field and pasture work ... wonder what THAT is??! Hmmm ... now to do a bit more searching ('scuse me) ...

Hoes are designed either for weeding (to slice weeds at or just below ground level) or for chopping (to cut up weeds and cultivate or disturb the soil surface). Blades on chopping hoes, such as a rectangular onion hoe, are set at a sharp angle to the ground and are designed to move more soil than weeding hoes. The long handled diamond hoe is a weeding hoe, as are the stirrup hoe (also called the action, oscillating, swivel, scuffle, or hula hoe), the circle hoe, and Eliot Coleman’s collinear hoe.

and here's a nice site about hoes with pics:
http://www.allsun.com.au/Longhandlehoes.html

Maybe I should be looking for a kind of SHOVEL?? ... I definitely need the type for "chopping!" ... to get at roots below ground level ... (I think!) :confused:

Okay ... from what they say above about this "weeding" biz ... if you slice the weed at ground level, it'll DIE?? (don't think so!) ... all those gardens look so nice and cleared! :eek: ... I will learn!

this is nice: (from http://www.mmpress.info/id30.htm)

Men are needed who will educate others how to plow.
FCE 324
God would be glorified if men from other countries who have acquired an intelligent knowledge of agriculture, would come to this land, and by precept and example teach the people how to cultivate the soil, that it may yield rich treasures. Men are wanted to educate others how to plow, and how to use the implements of agriculture. Who will be missionaries to do this work, to teach proper methods to the youth, and to all who feel willing and humble enough to learn? If any do not want you to give them improved ideas, let the lessons be given silently, showing what can be done in setting out orchards and planting corn; let the harvest be eloquent in favor of right methods of labor. Drop a word to your neighbors when you can, keep up the culture of your own land, and that will educate.

Well, for now, I'm going ahead and chopping away at my little garden area with my short handled hoe ... but will read on! (and maybe check eBay for hoes). Isn't the internet WONDERFUL?

[wilderness1989]

To quote my uncle when we WALKED CORN AND BEANS for him, "You have to pull up the weed's roots and let the sun get to them to kill a weed!!" If you cut it at the surface of the soil or just below the weed will come back to haunt you.
John Gray

[TastyofHasty]

I've discovered my "hoe" is actually a "mattock." Thanks for the advice, Wilderness! I'm trying to do that with this grass stuff ... fortunately, the horse likes to eat it, so I'm bundling up what I'm throwing out and tossing it to him!

[dirtundernails]

I thought it souded like a mattock. Oh, your poor back! It sounds like you may have a pitch fork, too. They have tubular tines and long handles. Garden forks have rectangular tines and short handles. Mine has a "D" handhold. I can use my garden fork to dig up grass roots and shake the dirt off to remove from garden areas. Have you tried vinegar and lemon juice to burn the grass? It works best in the hot sun, be selective- it kills everything, and it makes soil acidic, so the application of wood ashes or lime might be nice aferward. Don't put these last two on top of manure, it will leach all the good stuff out.

[zebraman]

Hey; Why is it that men are always attracted to hoe's?

[redbrick]

Maybe it's because we're all a bit seedy?

[FourDeuce]

I use the Square Foot Gardening method, so I don't have to cultivate the whole garden. Since I'm in the Ozarks, too, that means I "only" had to get the rocks out of the beds where I grow my plants :rolleyes: , and can do all my cultivation, mulching, and watering easier without having to work around as many rocks. It's a lot of work initially, but once you get the biggest rocks out of the way, it gets easier. :cool:

[TastyofHasty]

Dirtundernails, perhaps I will try the vinegar/lemon juice later on when there IS sun! Right now, we've got snow! and didn't know wood ashes/lime leach good stuff out of manure! We've got a lot of wood ashes ... :) that's how we heat our house! Zebraman and redbrick, I KNEW I'd get some such comments ... jest a-waitin fer 'em ... FourDeuce, I have the square foot gardening book but have never actually marked out spaces and done it 'RIGHT'!! ... Seems like square foot gardening makes sense for anybody with limited garden space ... I'm realizing people make "garden plans," and have been reading up on companion plantings ... I wonder (on the side) whether calendula counts as "Marigolds" that will discourage bugs? Calendula is s'posed to be good for making a skin salve which is why I'm gonna try growin' it.

(sigh) wouldn't it be nice to just go to the store and stock up on all sorts of shovels and hoes and a nice small rear-tine TILLER and even maybe a TRACTOR ... (but then there'd be no BACK EXERCISE!) ... and health is a very enjoyable thing ...

[zebraman]

Hey TastyofHasty;If you have alot of space I suggest laying down Black plastic over the beds with /weeds and letting the Sun "nuke" them.It works really well here in CA.for false garlic and nut grass.Calendula is in the same class of Invasive weed.It does not do the same as Marigold and it is the Wild (Pot)Marigold that is used as a Companion,Which needs to be grown rather thickly to be any use.I can't stress Bio-Dynamics enough so that you don't get bugs in the first place.In the Summer I would much rather be Kayaking in the Ocean than dealing with bugs in my Garden.

[TennOC]

If it's a British website or book, then "Marigold" means Calendula. Generally Marigold on USA sites/books means Tagetes species (Mexican marigolds). I don't know whether Canadiens use exclusively one or the other, it's confusing fer sure. So-called French marigolds are the Tagetes sp.

[TastyofHasty]

Well, got back from a week long trip & the snow is GONE, (it was 78 F here today!) pulled some cardboard away from a corner where I'd put down radish, turnip, bunching onion, beet seeds ... they are coming up!! hallelujah! what a great hobby! exercise, interest, and excitement all in one thing. Had left my little started tomatos, green peppers, and the ones I'm really excited about, Chinese Wolfberry, coming up from seed, in a south window with a heating pad turned on low on the bottom shelf ... and they've grown! I might try that black plastic idea ... but this grass grows right ACROSS the black plastic. I really want to figure out how farmers and gardeners keep their fields and gardens that I see so free of weeds!!

[redbrick]

You don't really want to know, do you? If it's completely weed free, it's probably been treated with herbicides. Sad, but true.

[Gardenurse]

While doing some research on quack grass, I found a natural, non-toxic spray called Burnout (made from vinegar, clove oil, lemon, and other natural plant oils). Within 48 hours soil pH returns to normal levels. It is nonselective, so spray cautiously. http://www.commonsensecare.com/burnout-weed-killer.html

For what it's worth, I've used white vinegar on weeds between bricks and sidewalk cracks...dead within 24 hours.

Regarding calendula, which I also read is a good pest repellent and skin salve, Pharmer Phil posted a huge list on the "Sqaushing Pests and Bugs" forum under the "Co-planting to prevent bugs" topic (third post down). I'm planning on using companion planting, and thought you might find his list helpful too.

As for your rock dilemma, I'm not sure what to tell you. How sturdy and effective is the Garden Claw?

Good luck!

[TastyofHasty]

Okay, I'm Scotch & pinch each & every penny! ... even vinegar and/or lemon juice are kinda expensive to be throwing on the garden! :rolleyes: and around here, adding acid is GOOD. I think the landscape around here is very KARST ... meaning ... limestone under everything ... meaning (I think) rather alkaline soil.

I will have to check out Pharmer Phil's post about companion plants!! I've been searching the 'net for LAYOUTS or PLANS showing plants next to one another ... there are lots of sites that tell you in text, but hey, why not go the next step and just show a nice layout for companion planting a garden (preferably a circular garden about 25' in diameter such as mine :p ) ... even better ... a nice layout for companion planting a garden in Spring ... then month by month throwing out stuff and planting new stuff.

I've got a whole lot of the rocks already out! hey, who said I had a ROCK PROBLEM, anyhow??? :D

[gulfcoastguy]

Tasty of hasty, My ancestors came from Scotland in the 1700's also. Many years ago we had a woman from Scotland working in my offices. Being interested in what she could tell me about the area I mentioned that my ancestors were Scotch. Here is what she said " I drink scotch and I am Scots you bloody twit!" Needless to say she was quite a character and I never forgot the difference between scotch and Scots. Only time I have ever been called a bloody twit so far. Good luck with the rocks.

[rjzatyko@yahoo.com]

hi, why don't you get routh stout's book(no-work garden book) from the library and read it and see if it will work for you or not,different things work for different people,i don't think that those weed pullers are worth a hoot,my wife has one(it just sits in the shed) and they don't do squat if you don't have real good loose dirt,where i live in ky the ground is real bad and i am building it up with straw which isn't cheap,but it seems to be working for me. richard from ky.

[ksmitty]

Hi Guys,The best tool for all of these problems is a Troy- Bilt- Rototiller, you can't beat them for all of the chores mentioned.

[TastyofHasty]

rjzatyko, I've actually read Ruth Stout's book. I think I got it at the library. AND I've read Lasagna Gardening, same idea. Both inspiring and make you hope you will not have to be out there pulling weeds. But when there ARE weeds ... that's what I'm talking about ... the "hula hoe" sounds about what I'm looking for ... the best sort of hand-held implement for rooting out weeds by the roots!

Yeah, all that cardboard and newspaper with mulch on top sounds great. But I guess one of the charms of gardening is that it's one of those things you have to try out and experiment with, and sometimes one thing works, and sometimes it's another. Maybe I didn't put enough cardboard(?) but I DID put down (lots of) cardboard and LOADS of cut grass on top of it; this "quack grass" just grows right over, under, and around it. But this year I've just dug in, early, and pulled out all quack grass roots I could get at ... and probably BECAUSE last year I did the thing with the cardboard, manure, grass mulch, pulling out rocks, THIS year the dirt looks actually pretty darned good!

Yes, a Troy-Bilt Rototiller would be great 'cept it costs a lot!! And as mentioned before, the idea of doing everything with hand tools has its own fascination, what with getting "really really close to the earth," like it gets in your hair, even. :D And hey, my back is in great shape!

[redbrick]

You know, now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure Ms. Stout wrote that the only thing to get past the thick mulch was Witch grass or Bermuda grass. I can't remember since it's been many years since I read it. Could it be that Quack grass is another common name for the same plant? Not to be a black cloud, mind.

[TastyofHasty]

Wow, what a great memory you must have, Redbrick! As far as nomenclature ... it might NOT be "quack grass," not sure. It is "recumbent," at this time of year a light whitish yellow, turning green in summer; it grows roots about 5" under the earth; it spreads over rocks, gravel, plastic, cardboard. The horse relishes it even in its yellow-whitish state during the winter months. If left alone, it grows into tangles that rise about 1' above the ground, but mostly spreads horizontally, putting down roots every 5 or 6 inches. At this time of year it is fairly easy to uproot. Its great strength is its persistence and ability to spread rapidly from many roots; and when the ground turns hard in summertime, it is very hard to dig out.

I haven't tried Roundup on it ... seems like that would probably knock it out great ... but hitting IT and not desirable plants with Roundup might be a problem ... plus Roundup is a LITTLE expensive. Might be a good idea to Roundup around the edge of the whole garden in about a month (when leaves are soaking up the sun and Roundup works). I'm envisioning about a foot and a half of bare dirt around the whole garden. I HAD rocks ... they just provide a "home base!" I think maybe rocks would be best used as MULCH ... in shady areas ... where I have plants that need a bit more "cool."

[redbrick]

[QUOTE=TastyofHasty]Wow, what a great memory you must have, Redbrick!

Heh heh, tell that one to DW the next time I forget to take out the trash!

To be honest, the only characteristic I DO remember about Ms. Stout's evil grass is that its roots could spear potatoes!

I truly don't hope you're serious about Roundup! That stuff isn't nearly as innocent as Monsanto wants you to believe. Contrary to what they would lead you to believe, it WILL kill earthworms and beneficial soil fungi. I would sooner recommend horticultural vinegar or a propane weedburner (careful of the mulch, though).

[TastyofHasty]

Redbrick, I have made one of those fundamental noticings in my middle years, which is: that where there is one male and one female, it is the MALE who takes out the trash! Strange, isn't it? and wonderful. viva la differance & all that! I am so glad for my hubby who does the same!

Oh no! Roundup isn't okay? oh dear ... that makes "how to hoe" even MORE important.

There are so many things that are important that nobody talks about. Like, "how to dust" and "how to get rid of trash." Where we live, they allow recycling, thanks be to God. People around here used to BURY their old cans and plastic, so I hear. And there must be something about this area, people seem to accumulate all sorts of things that just get left on porches and stuff, outbuildings full of ... junk. We are already accumulating a "weedy" growth ... old bentwood rocker with no seat ... bits of lumber in a pile ... and hubby is a great collector of CABLE ... pieces of TV antenna that need to be just bundled up and recycled!!!

NOT being perfectionist is a good first step. For instance, in mopping the floor ... if a few little flecks of "stuff" just get spread around and take an inordinate amount of time to get 'up,' then by all means, KEEP ON MOPPING! Remember the BIG PICTURE and don't get sucked into concentrating on dinky stuff. When you are done with mopping, you KNOW that you will later be coming around with a broom. I guess same for hoeing. How 'bout ... do the best you can with hoeing, then if something WILL NOT be eradicated, perhaps a SQUIRT of Roundup? (will have to try that vinegar idea!)

[Mary]

HAVE YOU TRIED A GARDEN CLAW, IT HAS THREE TINES AND A SHORT HANDLE.iT DOES NOT HURT YOUR BACK,TO USE IT YOU PUSH IT IN THE GROUND AND TWIST IT SIDE WAYS, BRING IT UP AND REPEAT, OF COURSE I DON'T HAVE ROCKS or that grass your talking about, but I have lots of weeds. I started that garden space last year.The trouble I have is my yard is lower than both my neighbors and the ground does not drain well after a rain.I'm thinking of raised beds but need my son or grandsons help.I can't do the things I use to, but still want to .Good Luck! Mary

[TastyofHasty]

Hi, Mary,

I've got a garden claw! Now that I've got some plants coming up in the garden area, that is probably a pretty good implement to get used to. And I bought what I think is a "hula hoe" at a garage sale in Fayetteville, for 50 cents! Yippee!

If you are in a low area, some types of trees actually soak up a LOT of water ... for instance, cypress trees; there are other plants that do that, too, I think. Maybe you could start a thread asking people what plants will use up your excess water. After last year's drought, I'm always super-glad when it rains around HERE.

[skip]

If you are first starting a garden why not hire someone with a power tiller hooked to their tractor? fairly inexpensive and makes quick work of the soil

[tomakers]

Wow, what a great memory you must have, Redbrick! As far as nomenclature ... it might NOT be "quack grass," not sure. It is "recumbent," at this time of year a light whitish yellow, turning green in summer; it grows roots about 5" under the earth; it spreads over rocks, gravel, plastic, cardboard. The horse relishes it even in its yellow-whitish state during the winter months. If left alone, it grows into tangles that rise about 1' above the ground, but mostly spreads horizontally, putting down roots every 5 or 6 inches. At this time of year it is fairly easy to uproot. Its great strength is its persistence and ability to spread rapidly from many roots; and when the ground turns hard in summertime, it is very hard to dig out.

I haven't tried Roundup on it ... seems like that would probably knock it out great ... but hitting IT and not desirable plants with Roundup might be a problem ... plus Roundup is a LITTLE expensive. Might be a good idea to Roundup around the edge of the whole garden in about a month (when leaves are soaking up the sun and Roundup works). I'm envisioning about a foot and a half of bare dirt around the whole garden. I HAD rocks ... they just provide a "home base!" I think maybe rocks would be best used as MULCH ... in shady areas ... where I have plants that need a bit more "cool."
If I remember right "Roundup" does not work on any grass (broadleaf only) and it is far from harmless. "Evertall" is what is used on grasses, at least in my experience. I would not use either in my garden.

[TastyofHasty]

Skip, I think you have hit on what is probably the best solution to starting a new garden area. I just have to convince hubby to spend $$ on renting and also find somebody who will do it nearby. That will be NEXT year. Also, I have just been catching on to how LARGE some of y'all's veggie gardens are!!! Big! (I thought 25' circle was big. That was wrong, too, from what I've been gathering).

Well, I haven't used any Roundup yet, tomakers! (the kind I have is called Brush B Gone, I DID use it along the edge of our property on some poison ivy about a year ago!) We shall have to see how well the digging I did this winter/spring did in eradicating that 'monster grass.' and how well my hoes work ... and lots of things! There is so much to learn. Latest book from library is Gardening for Pleasure, a Practical Guide to the Essential Skills by Ursula Buchan. So far, this book has taught me: I will have to get a garden fork somewhere; you start CORN in pots!! and all sorts of other things that just filter through the ole grey cells ... :rolleyes:

[tomakers]

I am pretty sure what you have is "quack grass" or "nut grass" and the only organic solution is to keep pulling it up or you could perhaps get some geese. I can remember reading they are tough on any type of grass. As far as disposal, my father told me many years ago "burn it and be careful where you put the ashes". That stuff is tough. I have it in my garden. But I also have horseradish plants. I got 3 sets probably 20 years ago and didn't remove every tiny root. Then, unthinking, I rototilled. I don't think I will ever be rid of it.
"Round Up" works great for poison ivy. A touch of it on the leaves and it is history, unless you have monster vines. Then you may have to repeat it several times. It can be wiped on the leaves, instead of spraying, if there are other things planted nearby. There are commercial applicators called "hockey sticks" made for wiping it or anything that will absorb it and not drip can be used, but wear some type of rubber or plastic gloves.
I just don't like to use it near things I am going to eat, although it is ok according to some. I know that in some commercial applications the area to be seeded is first sprayed with Roundup and later seeds are planted (corn particularly). I have also heard of it being used prior to harvesting potatoes to knock the plants down before the tubers are dug.

[TastyofHasty]

"the only organic solution is to keep pulling it up or you could perhaps get some geese."

Well, tomakers, this year hopefully will be better than LAST year. I DID dig up nearly the whole garden this past winter. Actually, it already IS better than last year! :)