What happened to manners? [Archive]

ceresone

March 15th, 2006, 08:13 AM

I've wandered around forums for about 9 years now, and it seems that for awhile, everyone is polite, and helpful, then another element creeps in, invaribly!the garden web forums were such helpful forums--for years--now, its changing. homesteading today-well-its been that way since i started, so guess it couldnt get more abrasive to some. but--this forum has always been my refuge, i've "met" some of the nicest people here, you think maybe we've told too many about it? lol--really, everyone, I'm sure if you dont agree with a poster, you can find a nice way to express your different ideas, than attacking them.we all have learned from the forums, and from years of gardening, and we can learn--or not,-- from each other. if you find your experience differs from what someone else has said--find a nice way to express yourself--please? ok--i'll get off my soapbox--

Timeless Rogue

March 15th, 2006, 10:42 AM

Thank you, Ceresone! Well put and I couldn't agree more. I am a relative newcomer to any of the forums but I, too, spend a lot of time in the forums and find it somewhat distasteful when the abrasivness and name calling creeps in. We are definitely here to learn ... and teach if possible ... or we wouldn't be here. And even learned opinions are sometimes either not in total agreement or even perhaps absolutely wrong when compared to our own field experience ... definitely no reason to get our dander up. Thanks for getting on the soapbox for even just a minute ...

redbrick

March 15th, 2006, 06:12 PM

Hear, Hear! I heartily agree!

I must admit, I did get sucked into one disagreement for a few posts, when I thought I was trying to smooth things out. No, it didn't have the intended effect.

Someone had a good point on one of the other threads: just ignore the offensive post, and usually the poster will give up the effort. Of course, we all have to ignore it, or things can get out of hand quickly.

Just my humble opinion.

PhilosopherStorm

March 15th, 2006, 07:35 PM

ceresone,

Great post!

I have written on civility, intellectual generosity, intellectual honesty, and the nature of honest intellectual discussions for many years, and my experiences tend to reflect your own.

As a rule, good moderators set a good tone. In some cases though you find that the moderators/administrators are the ones who engage in personal attacks and insults (sadly this happened in some threads on this forum) being unable or unwilling to disagree civilly.

The good moderator calls out such behavior not so much for the immediate effect on the insulter, but for the general tone of the forum, that is to say for the benefit of all. These serve as mild reminders that civility and honesty are paramount to good intellectual discussions. Moderators who refrain from this moderating of civility, or any who just ignore the insults, are contributing to the problem. By telling those who have been insulted to ignore the insults or "get over it" etc, one tells the one insulted that they are not valued, but that those who are insulting are of infinite value. Clearly this is the WRONG message to send!

That said, I fear that this is not a new phenomenom. Socrates wrote about separating ideas from ourselves more than two thousand years ago. Since usually the insults come from anger based in fear, usually because some idea or argument was refuted or questioned, the insulter has forgotten that he/she is more than the ideas that he/she presents.

As Socrates put it, Our ideas are not our children, we ought not treat them as such. (Well, to be honest, he said it in greek! ) :)

"To me no idea is sacred, none profane" (Guess that famous american writer, poet, thinker)

redbrick

March 15th, 2006, 07:53 PM

Gee, Philosopher, I had seen things the other way around when I suggested ignoring insults. My thought was that the insulter was not worth aknowledging, while the one being insulted was rising above the issue. I do see your point on moderation, although perhaps "Less is more" applies here as well?

PhilosopherStorm

March 15th, 2006, 08:27 PM

How so?

It seems to me that the moderator who joins in the insulting (as unfortunately happened here) or refrains from moderating, simply contributes to the problem. If I understand you correctly, and I strongly suspect that I do not, you are saying that the less the moderator says with regard to clear and obvious insults and personal attacks, the better?

LoreD

March 15th, 2006, 09:00 PM

I won't respond because I am ignoring this argument.

LoreD

PhilosopherStorm

March 15th, 2006, 09:50 PM

I am sorry to hear that Lore, it does clearly pertain to your posts.

rjzatyko@yahoo.com

March 15th, 2006, 10:07 PM

hi, i agree with philosopherstorm.richard from ky.

JereGettle

March 15th, 2006, 10:13 PM

Thanks Cere for your great thoughts!

---------------

hI Storm it is me, Jere!

nope We sure arn't doin are job our we!

But we have fun triing!

JereGettle

March 15th, 2006, 10:16 PM

I Agree with ME!

Except on when I disagree with me, that is the only eggception, and then I don't agree with me!

:)

flowerpower

March 16th, 2006, 06:41 AM

As Redbrick said, sometimes just not responding is the best thing. We have all sorts of people here. Some we will like and some we won't, just like in our "real" lives.

PhilosopherStorm

March 16th, 2006, 06:50 AM

Jere,

Of course run your forum and your activism in any way you see fit. I spoke of how to have a productive, civil, forum. For all I know, you have no desire for that, certainly the use of personal attacks and deliberate dishonesty which you have employed in other threads, leads one to conclude that you have no desire for civility or honesty.

BTW Should I drop off a dictionary on my way through MO? :)

Flowerpower,

That works as long as it is merely a different idea which we do not care for. When we ignore personal attacks, insults, and other forms of incivility, we are simply encouraging that sort of behavior. When one suggests that insults to others is merely entertainment, as has been the case in at least one thread here, they are actively encouraging and supporting personal attacks. As both a practical and a civil matter, simply ignoring these behaviors is impractical.

dirtundernails

March 16th, 2006, 09:30 AM

Hubby of DUN here...

The below is NOT directed at any person, it is my OPINION, and experiance. Anyone who knows me could vouch that if I was directing this toword any person, I would name names... :)

I am 13 years senior of my DW. I am old enough to be able to remember "civility and honesty". (C&H for short here.)

C&H in society. Not so many years ago, if some miscreant made a crude remark, inflammatory or other less than gentlemanly comment in a public place, he was very likely going to have to eat soup for the next few weeks. Unacceptable behavior was generally frowned upon, and chivalry demanded an instant correction of the bad behavior. Therefore, there were far less rude people, foul language in public, etc. Such behavior was heavily censured. To NOT rise to the occasion and defend civility was considered cowardly and implied that you condoned such behavior. Today, one can hardly go into a public place any more without hearing the "F" word. Why? Because the "law" protects those against swift correction by the majority of the public. Back then, if you handed a guy his teeth for making a rude comment, HE would end up going to jail as well for "disorderly conduct" or other charges, and the person who corrected the behavior _might_ get into trouble, but the jury or judge would almost always exonerate them because of the circumstances. How things have changed.

C&H in politics. A fantasy for the most part, at least in my experiance. I was heavily involved in politics at one time, and I seldom saw it... Maybe it exsisted in the sedate R.R.O.O. following sunday night old ladies bridge club. As far as in politics at most levels, passions can run hot and heavy, and there have always been highly passionate people who champion their cause with great emotion, loud voice, and outright derision and rancor. ( anyone who thinks the Birth of this nation was some mild mannered old "gentlemen" who nicely asked King George to ease up have no history to support that veiw. Those freedoms we had (note past tense) were bought with blood.)

The mild and meek "why can't we all just get along" crowd who quitely state their input have exsisted side by side with the above rowdy crowd. This at every level my grandparents, parents or myself were involved in. While the meek and mild crowd may win when something comes to a vote, usually they just get run over.

While a sedate and or almost boring council meeting where all they do is consider a few items and pay a few bills is usually very polite and business like, taxation, annexation, confiscation, restrictions and other agenda items where the gub'mint wants to take or control more of what you have for their own use, or to give it to someone they favor, is usually NOT a quiet and gentle affair. I would say that MOST of the emotions and fighting occurs in politics and quicky dispenses with any notion of C&H just as soon as those who were elected to SERVE, decide to serve themselves in a power or money grab, or in some other form decide to take or control what the individual has earned by the sweat of his brow. For the most part though, those in gub'mint want to do the taking and controlling as quietly as possible, because when word gets out that the taking is about to begin, a certain percentage of the populace shows up and reminds them which side their bread is buttered on., and they are usually not so sweet tempered about it.

Freedoms are usually lost one at a time, at the hand of complacency. They are usually won all at once, in revolutions and paid for in blood.

Well, I will get of my borrowed wife's soap box, now....

Gardening is fun, the food is great.... I just wish the aphids, grasshoppers, ladybugs and mantids would just all get along. :)

Hubby of DUN.

LoreD

March 16th, 2006, 10:31 AM

I believe that the discussion referred to inappropriate online behavior. I think that it would be difficult to knock someone out verbally online. When someone is having an online temper tantrum we have to ignore it because any reaction reinforces that behavior.

Therefore I ignore any posts that are off-topic, abusive, or irrelevant.

LoreD

dirtundernails

March 16th, 2006, 10:59 AM

Hubby of DUN.

YEP, online manners... Having been involved with the internet since before it was "open to the public", amd things like archie, gopher, UUCP, etc. were pretty much it, and the "web" and browsers were non-existant, I can tell you that it has gone down hill... We were a small crowd, all helping, trusting, and mostly knowing each other. mail servers were open relays, so that if yours was down, you could borrow another, and things were OK... Spam did not exist. It was a different world.

methinks that it is because there is no face to face, and others forget there is a human being on the other keyboard. Well, maybe with the exception of crackers and spammers :)

Course, from my lurking here, I see that most of the discord is based on political type arguments.

Jere may or may not know who my DW and I are on this forum, but, he knows our face from his store. He is a fine young man, very philantropic and caring. I'll betcha a dozen dounuts that almost everyone here would get along fine in person, with much respect and all. Except for me., Ask my DW. I am a grouch! :)
I have heard it said that if you are not a liberal at 18, you don't have a heart... and if your not conservative at 30, you don't have a brain. :D My pendulum has swung both ways more than once, and, I find myself more liberal than I used to be and more conservative than ever. :confused:

I almost went back and edited the post to talk about the online aspect of C&H, but, it was wordy enough, and, the online aspects of life are mere extensions of real life.

Welp, I gotta run.

Everyone take time to love, laugh, and live.

Hubby of DUN,

PhilosopherStorm

March 16th, 2006, 02:35 PM

I believe that is from Churchill.. But he has it wrong because it looks at government from a linear aspect, ignoring the much more robust nature of individuality and justice (of which government is at best a subset).

redbrick

March 16th, 2006, 06:12 PM

Philosopher,

I apologize for not elaborating on my thoughts. Your view on moderators addressing insults and attacks is, I believe, accurate. When moderators need to step in, I believe they need to do so quickly, decisively, and even-handedly. That being said, the idea I didn't expand properly was this. On the whole, I believe that moderators can be viewed as a form of government, and should serve to protect the beneficial activity of free speech on the forums. In other words; if nobody's fighting, leave well enough alone. Once someone begins to abuse free speech, such as name-calling and making destructive comments, then is the time for moderation.

As to the rest of us, I still believe that ignoring the insults is the best course. When a poster defends him-or-herself, they tend to lend a certain validity to the offensive party. Also, the situation tends to escallate, as the offensive party usually thinks they are doing nothing wrong. Pretty soon, insults are flying fast and furious and both parties have a bad name on the forum. However, when the insulted party refuses to pay satisfaction to the first insult, the offending party has a choice. They can either drop the issue, or they can press it. If they press the issue with no response, they tend only to foul their own name. This seems to work best on the forums, I believe, because we are, on the whole, "faceless".

Hopefully, I've made an effective case, as I do have a bad habit of giving the abbreviated form of the Readers' Digest Condensed Version of what I'm really thinking. My last post WAS rather vague and confusing, my bad!

jtcm05

March 16th, 2006, 07:52 PM

Well, I hope the prudes who started this thread are reading up on poor zebraman's trials and tribulations here and at gardenweb, LOL. I accept your apologies. :rolleyes:

:cool:

PhilosopherStorm

March 16th, 2006, 09:46 PM

Andy,

The escalation only occurs when one meets the insult with insults. Citing the insults while remaining civil is the approach I am advocating. Notice when Jere decided to employ person--------------------------------, the responses to their attacks remained completely civil, but did not pretend that those attacks are acceptable. I believe this is the third choice not seen in the ------- you present.

As to the "ignore it and it won't exist" sort of approach, I believe that over two thousand years of history are sufficient to demonstrate the failure of this approach.. :)

PS

flowerpower

March 17th, 2006, 07:10 AM

Well, I hope the prudes who started this thread are reading up on poor zebraman's trials and tribulations here and at gardenweb, LOL. I accept your apologies. :rolleyes:

:cool:

"Prudes" ? Geez, you couldn't even go one sentence without being insulting towards someone.

Timeless Rogue

March 17th, 2006, 07:18 AM

Not only that, Flowerpower, what the heck might 'prudes' have to do with anything going on here?

PhilosopherStorm

March 17th, 2006, 07:21 AM

Um Jere? You deleted the use of "dichotomy?" How does refering to a dichotomy "brake" (should be "break") the rules? A dichotomy is simply a two part distinction there is nothing uncivil, insulting, or even negative in either the direct definition or the the colloquial usage of the word.

Then too how is referring to objective verifiable fact, such as your use of personal attacks and dishonesty (Which has been thoroughly demonstrated and documented) as examples of the failure of the "just ignore it" approach, as well as your suggestion that insults directed at those with whom you disagree should be taken as entertainment (something which is itself insulting), "brake" the rules?

I have asked you directly as well as Andrew for clarification on this, as there seems to be no rhyme or reason to it, other than you choose to edit or delete those individuals with whom you personally disagree, as well as insult those with whom you disagree. Unfortunately you have not seen fit to respond at all, except to continue to delete and edit honest, civil, discussion.

As you well know, all of my posts have been completely honest, absolutely civil, and never out of line. Nothing I have said or done could honestly be called into question on these ground, despite the accusations to the contrary. Neither civility nor honesty requires agreement with insults, agreement with falsehoods, nor agreement with the assertions or positions of others. Certainly honesty and civility do not require that one refrain from reason, though it seems that you are choosing to take offense to the many elements of well reasoned thought. Why?

Out of curiosity, do you see the irony of your deleting honest civil discussion in a thread on civility? (Especially when you leave direct insults in the thread... )

What happened to manners?

SelfSufficientOne

March 17th, 2006, 08:56 AM

Oh, I think the group is great. If a discussion gets a little too dicey for you just don't read it! I think the moderators are doing a fine job. Some discussions like the one with Zebraman had to be drawn right out to the end for people to understand what was really going on. The fact that it wasn't deleted turned out to be a good thing because now we all know (though of course some of us knew right from the start) what happened and who was in the wrong.
Seems to me this post has turned into an attack on the moderators and no matter how nicely put is just as insulting to them.
What happened to manners?

leelanau_ferg

March 17th, 2006, 09:04 AM

Bottom line is this is Jere & Co.'s forum. They can do whatever they durn well please. If we don't like it, we can decide not to participate.

PhilosopherStorm

March 17th, 2006, 09:26 AM

SelfSufficientOne,

There is no insult either present or intended in citing these clear and objective facts. Were it not for the use of personal attacks by these individuals in question, as well as the complete allowance of insults if they are directed against those that Jere disagrees with, then I would certainly agree with you. Well, okay so I do question the editing out of "dichotomy" as somehow violating the rules..

I agree that this is their forum, and they can choose to run it in any manner in which they like. In fact I stated this directly to both Jere and Andrew in personal messages to them in response to the personal attack tactic they employed. But this fact of ownership will not make a personal attack civil, civil posts insults, or falsehoods true..

If honest civil discussion is "braking (sic) the rules" then sobeit, but wouldn't you agree that stating this, or otherwise making it clear would be the minimum required by courtesy?

Indeed, what happened to manners?

JereGettle

March 17th, 2006, 04:28 PM

ATTN! HERE ARE THE RULES!
1) Obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, hateful, threatening or illegal content is not permitted.

2) Children under the age of 13 are not allowed join or participate in our forums, under U.S. law.

3) Please keep all discussion on topic.

4) All rules are subject to change without notice.

6) Obey all rules.

The owners of IDigMyGarden Forums reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason.

http://www.idigmygarden.com/forums/rules.php

LoreD

March 17th, 2006, 04:56 PM

Great post. It really helps to clarify the forum rules. Many times I have read posts that have nothing to do with food, farming, market gardening, etc. I get really tired of getting off topic.

I have no idea what the ethics of social security, welfare, food stamps, and income tax had to with food and gardeing. There are sites where people can argue the benefits and drawbacks of the social welfare state versus a libertarian society and I wish they would argue them there.

LoreD

PhilosopherStorm

March 17th, 2006, 05:31 PM

The edited posts contained none of the language prohibited under the rules, and were directly on topic, which leaves the questions concerning what rules were broken, as was the reason given for deleting significant portions of the posts.

This is obviously a practical concern so as to avoid such deletions of honest, civil, dicussion which is directly on topic.

redbrick

March 17th, 2006, 08:32 PM

Well, Philosopher, two thousand years in the world may have shown that you can't ignore some things, but I'm afraid that two weeks in the forum have shown that sometimes Civil Honesty fail us as well. I'm fresh out of ideas, and the world still ain't saved. I guess we each have to make our own ways, and hope nobody knocks heads in the dark. ;) :o

PhilosopherStorm

March 17th, 2006, 09:50 PM

Andy,

I wish that you could have gotten to see the post in its entirety, as of course there was a great deal more which did offer good, practical, honest solutions. Unfortunately that was deleted because it was "braking the rules" to offer honest civil discussion, without resorting to insults and personal attacks.

I participate in several forums, some of which are shining examples of good, honest, civil, intellectual discussion and the methods spelled out, but sadly arbitrarily deleted, have worked quite well. However, I did leave out one very important factor, there has to be a level of maturity in the participants as well. A level that you have certainly shown in our discussions, and I thank you sincerely for that.

I am curious as to how civility and honesty have "failed" as you see it.

zebraman

March 18th, 2006, 02:06 PM

Hey Dirtundernails;You say most people would find Jere likeable in person,but he is just as likeable here.His Company reflects this ,as does the website and I am sure the magazine does as well.still waiting on that but I am sure I won't be disappointed.I too was liberal until I was old enough to vote,which was '78.I enjoyed your post and found your observations correct.Is it true about the Banjo players and the Ozarks?

ceresone

March 18th, 2006, 04:42 PM

LOL, zebraman, i'll bite--and i'll also be polite---what the story about banjo players, and the ozarks? or--is it a tale you wouldnt repeat to your grandma?
come to the baker creek spring festival-and all your questions will be answered. but--then again, sometimes it just pays to not be too smart.
Some of my gardens planted, everyone!!

Timeless Rogue

March 18th, 2006, 05:09 PM

Cool, Ceresone! How much did you get in? Still a bit chilly up here ... but soon we can start getting ready to follow suit. It's actually snowing just now ...

zebraman

March 18th, 2006, 05:19 PM

Hey Ceresone;The Question is for Dirtundernails-it refers to Polyploidilism.That is why I used Banjo players to illustrate this.
Maybe not in Missouri,but here in LA it pays Way more if your'e smart.That is one of at least 100 reasons I don't live there.

Timeless Rogue

March 18th, 2006, 05:23 PM

And here we go again ...

redbrick

March 18th, 2006, 05:43 PM

Philosopher, I'm not being smart-alecky when I say this, but you of all people should understand how Civil Honesty has failed us on the forums! And yes, there is a lot to be said for participant maturity. If more people were more mature, there would be nothing to ignore, in my opinion.

Thank you for your compliment, as I often feel like I spend most of my time chewing on both of my nine-and-a-half double wides! :D

PhilosopherStorm

March 18th, 2006, 06:43 PM

Civility and honesty did not fail, some posters simply failed to employ them, particularly (at least) one who is in no small part responsible for setting the tone here.

I suppose you are correct that I should know of failures of civility and honesty in that being absolutely civil and only failing honesty on the side of being overly generous, was insufficient to prevent having posts edited to remove honest and civil elements! :) (with the false pretense that some rule was broken, an accusation which is itself insulting).

Zebra,

I cannot say that I have found being insulted by Jere a particularly redeeming trait of his. Nor do I consider anti-intellectualim, anti-freedom, anti-responsibility positions particular endearing*.. The same goes for his repeated use of dishonesty in the personal attacks as well as misrepresenting the facts of any given situation. But then perhaps I am particular in that I like honest, civil, intelligent and respectful individuals (especially those who embrace the notions of true justice, individual responsibility and of course liberty) who can disagree with respect without feeling the need to sink to employing insults, personal attacks, and dishonesty.

*further evidence of these traits as well as the clear dishonesty can be found in the reasons cited for his deleting portions of honest, civil posts then falsely accusing the poster of "braking" the rules. This ought not be mistaken as any sort of character assassination or personal attack in response, but rather simply a clear citation of the facts and objective alternative view as to the less than desirable behaviors presented here. Whether those carry over into face to face meetings I cannot say at this time.

zebraman

March 18th, 2006, 09:07 PM

ceresone

March 19th, 2006, 07:38 AM

kimpossible

March 19th, 2006, 08:04 AM

:) Gere, I am brand new to this forum, and appreciate the fact that your company has provided it for those of us that are interested in sharing and learning about gardening. That is why I joined.

I have one suggestion about forum rules, IMHO. You could add that insults will not be tolerated, veiled or otherwise.

I, personally, do not want to lose this great resource, when it is used as it is intended, but could see how it could become more trouble than it is worth to your company, whose only intention is to offer a great, extra feature for their customers and potential customers.

There is alot to be said for tolerance. There are as many different personalities as there are participants. A differing opinion is not a personal insult, unless it is presented that way. Then it becomes intolerance.

The internet is a great, but anonymous tool. It is easy to "say things" and "act" differently than you might otherwise, because of that anonymity. It is also easier to be misunderstood, because there is no benefit of body language, tone of voice, inflection, laughter, etc. That is why it is especially important to try extra-hard not to"say" anything that can be misconstrued, if at all possible. However, no one is perfect. If I unintentionally offend someone, I will apologize. I will not intentionally insult anyone. That is abuse, and totally wrong.

Thank you for providing your service!

Kim :)

dirtundernails

March 19th, 2006, 08:39 AM

Oh, btw.... Hubby of Dun here.

WARNING! Smart a** humor and poking fun is contained in the following message.
Anyone who cannot tolerate political incorrectness and good natured jabs should probably skip this post.

I get called "prude" frequently. To which I always respond, "Thank You!"

It is taken from prudence. Which is defined by wikipedia thusly. "The conventional meaning of prudence is to exercise sound judgement in practical affairs. It is considered to be a virtue and is often associated with wisdom." It also means to be concerned with propriety and decorum.

So, if being a "prude" is supposed to be some sort of an insult, it implies that it is better to not possess such traits.

What is therefore quite logical is that anyone who intends some kind of insult by calling another person a "prude" would be someone who lacks wisdom... :)

Zebraman. I did not know what you were asking regarding "banjo players and the ozarks" , until you clarified with an further comment regarding "polyploidilism" with another user....

So, considering your handle..... Could that imply you are an allopolyploid or genomic alloploid? :p
Hey, you set yourself up for that one man! :D

So, is _WHAT_ true about banjo players and the ozarks, and why are you interested? :eek:

Dun and Hubby.

Pharmerphil

March 19th, 2006, 08:59 AM

I have been sitting back following this, and would like to elaborate on several points made here.
Kim, you are DEAD ON, with your statments
Being an administrator of a fairly successful forum at present and in the past moderator at a couple, I can tell you that It's fun being a moderator/admin., but at times it's also a thankless task. There are times I have to make decisions in the heat of the moment, sometimes you are right, and sometimes you are wrong. We are human, and foulable. options available to and taken by the Admin or Moderators can be viewed as "what would YOU do in the same situation"

Sometimes People are here out of need, far beyond gardening questions, the need for a sounding board, maybe personal problems or loneliness may play a role, nontheless, it is a FORUM.
Should a post be deleted?
No Not usually. It's an extreme measure. I have done so with inappropriate advertising, posts that appear to infringe
copyright, Etc.
Better to reduce or "snip" a post. And always explain..But If you're going to do so, it's usually better by p.m. or email rather than in public. much less embarrassing for them.However, it might be worth a short public
note as well if you want to explain a specific policy, but be very careful to NOT blame he original poster.
The forum has alot of things that the staff has to decide, arguments, let them go, or step in, Spamming, allow, or dis-allow, personal attacks, ban or delete.
Always think of your members with an open mind, Would you correct spelling mistakes as a rule, I wouldn't, I encourage them, Can you assume someone who uses words unfamiliar to you as Uneducated? Can You be judgemental, when the person you are attacking is faceless? Comments, or thoughts such as:
"What a stupid thing to do".
"She's from the south, is she uneducated or something".
"What's her problem".

When the answers might be "she/he's having family problems"
"she's visually or physically disabled and every post is a huge effort"
"she's probably having a bad day".

There, but for the grace of God, go I.
Poor English and typing skills should not be a concern. If the poster's natural tongue is foriegn to You, then he's being very brave in posting and will probably turn out to be very bright. If you have difficulty with this and get frustrated, just think how you would be trying to post in HIS native
language.

All in all, respect folks, even if you do not share their views, comment, don't criticize, and if you feel you must, at least do so constructivly.
Any one of us who feels offended or abused has the right to complain to the staff, and the staff will do as they feel they must to maintain a peaceful, relaxing enviroment for the members.
Each and evryone of Us have to remember that it only takes one CLICK of the mouse, and we are Gone! :eek:

Pharmerphil

March 19th, 2006, 09:01 AM

Love the edit, DUN and Hubby:
Last edited by dirtundernails : Today at 08:56 AM. Reason: Have not had first cup of coffee.

ceresone

March 19th, 2006, 09:34 AM

Everyone!! I'm sorry i started this thread, its taken on a life of its own! Really, we have more to worry about than who insults who!
lets worry about the animal id. system govt. is trying to implement (a true mark of the beast), the fact they're trying to regulate the seed industry, stop chickens from being shipped, selling off our parks, forcing GMO food upon us--the trends i'm seeing scares me to death, and i'm a old woman! in the last few years, i've found laws and courts arent honest, nearby judge is on federal charges of kiddie porn- dosent any of this bother you?? if it dosent, it should-the fact the people complained loud enough stopped the port deal--lets turn our voices away from ourselves, and send them where they might do good.
this isnt the world i want my children to have- i want them to have what i had--when as a young girl i could get on my horse, and be gone all day-and noone had to wonder if a pedophile had snatched me!

kimpossible

March 19th, 2006, 09:54 AM

Thanks, PharmerPhil :)

Pharmerphil

March 19th, 2006, 09:57 AM

You're welcome Kim http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f221/oppclp/sm/rose.gif

zebraman

March 19th, 2006, 11:24 AM

Hey Dirtundernails;Thanks you made me Laugh and I enjoy reading your posts as well as your "reason for editing".In the early 80's I had a Tuxedo,with tails and a pair boots made out of Zebra Skins that I bought in Nairobi in the 70's.Being that I work in Television people started refering to me as the Zebraman.I am probably the most eccentric Republican you will meet.The question was not meant as an attack and your answer was totallly apropos.I will be in that part of the country later in the year for a film shoot and was just wondering what to expect.Have a Great Day.- I just read your response to re.coons so I'll take it that the neighbors are accomplished Banjo players.-

dirtundernails

March 19th, 2006, 04:41 PM

Hubby of DUN. here.

What to expect.... wow, what a wide area that covers. Well, I will try and scratch the surface.

First, there are a couple of "rules" if you will, about the Ozarks.

1: Frequently, things are not what they first appear to be, esp. to someone who has no rural upbringing.
2: The basic currency is a freindly wave and a smile. It will get you more than any amount of money.
3: Like most of the midwest, remarks about our women being "corn fed" will get your butt kicked.... by our women. :D
4: Your not likely to impress anyone with a $100,000 auto.... You may find a guy with a combine worth twice than that in the barn, and he only uses it two weeks a year, and lets his kids drive it.
5: Education is relative. A guy with no formal education beyond the 8th grade may very well possess more REAL knowledge of agriculture than some dude with a Phd in it, who grad'ee'ated from some high falutin sckool... :)
6: You will find that poverty and wealth are indistinguishable by mere appearances in many cases. We know a couple of elderly sisters that would strike many people as poor ol backwards backwoods hick spinsters. They are new england bred and educated, own 1 1/2 sections of land, (900+ acres) and have put all their land in a conservation trust. They drive a plain old mid 70's pickup truck, and dress in work clothes. (They have a very expensive sports car in the garage they only use on occasion. )
7: There are more friendly folk, percentage wise than most of the places I have ever been to.
8: You have heard of the "Bible Belt"? This is pert near the buckle here.
9: Money is not the measure of a man here. Integrity and reputation is.
10: Don't ever assume that an ozark accent and threadbare work clothes mean someone is uneducated, or poor. That may be a professor with more doctorate degrees than you can shake a stick at, or a dairy farmer worth several million dollars.

Overall, expect warm friendly people who don't put on too many airs, are not impressed with what wall street, madison ave. and hollywood think is important. Many people here think that those values are vapid. You will find plenty of large families, a few amish communities, and lots of churches. Many people have returned to the Ozarks after having left for the promise of a "better life" in the big city. What they found is what lots of people are discovering. Mid America values and old fashioned thinking are just about the best thing you can have this side of heaven. We are also seeing an influx of people from California, Texas, and other places.

Is there poverty, moonshinin' , outlaws and uneducated "hicks" here? Yep. They are the Ozark equivilent of the poverty, drug dealers, and gansta culture you find in the city, only I would trust them a lot more.

Then there is the famous ozark inginuity. Take one problem.... A lack of funds, and a pile of junk. End up with problem solved, less work, and the craziest application of junk, duct tape, chewin gum and balin wire you ever dun seen... Lots of city folk would just give up if it was not available in wal-mart.

Oh, there is the bluegrass music. Maybe not your cup of tea... But one look at the skill level will tell you that many of these folks could have just as easily been accepted to Juilliard. Some may HAVE studied there!

Well, thats a small start on it. Come with an open mind, and a closed mouth, and you will likely fit right in after your brain gets in sync with the pace of life here.

Dun & Hubby.

ps. Our nearest neighbors are cows. ;)

pps. I don't know about the banjo's, but I would rather have the neighbors eatin opposum, squirrel and armadillo and other wild foods than depending on "welfare". Funny thing is, take some critter, kill, gut, skin, and fix it up all tasty and your a hick.... Take exact same critter, prepare as above, give it a fancy french name, charge WAY to much for it, and it is haute cuisine. :)
See the posts on ramps for example. They are a wild onion... a WEED here. Almost everything that grows wild here is edible. and much of it is VERY good. Not suituble for monocultural agriculture practices in many cases, so you do not see much of it in the store. Did you know dandelions were not native to this country? They were imported for FOOD! Most people only know them as a lawn weed.

GreenCap

March 20th, 2006, 06:40 AM

sounds like a wonderful place dun, and you and your hub seem like my kind of people

flowerpower

March 20th, 2006, 06:41 AM

Ceresone, don't be sorry you started this thread.I really like this site.I have learned alot here and met some great people. But I do think that the moderators need to be around more. I hardly ever see them post. This forum has a very small membership compared to others. The # of members who actively participate is even smaller. There shouldn't be this much "male cow poop" already. As Phil stated, there is nothing wrong with differing opinions and even a few arguments should be allowed. But there are times when the moderators should step in.

DUN and Hubby, The Ozarks don't sound too bad to me. :D I'd live there anyday. Am I wrong, or weren't the Foxfire books about the Ozarks? I haven't read them in years. The books were interesting and very informative, nonetheless.

dirtundernails

March 20th, 2006, 08:03 AM

Green Cap, I like to read your posts, too. I bet we would all just get along.

Flower Power, if you're serious, check out www.morelestate.net. We have Foxfire 5, and it has stories from Tennessee, Kentucky and surrounding areas, mostly mountain type folks, so it reads like the Ozarks. I think Homesteaders are like minded as a group and blend well.

dun

Jean

March 20th, 2006, 09:59 AM

As always, "the squeaky wheel gets the grease."

Jean

P.S. Everyone's opinions are interesting, as long as they don't get abusive.

zebraman

March 21st, 2006, 04:45 PM

Hey Hubby of DUN;Thanks for the travelogue,The Banjo Player ref is from the 1970's film "Deliverance".Honesty and Integrity are just as valuable here as well.OK not everyone in my profession has direct experience with these but some people do.Also I drive a '58 Ford,retractible hardtop so I don't fit the rule here,But I do get the same mpg as an SUV.You are right about Bluegrass however Dolly Partons rendition of Zepplins "Stairway to Heaven" was Really enjoyable which had a strong Bluegrass feel to it.I did know about the Ramps and Dandelions.Tumbleweeds out west are also imports as are most of the Population.If it weren't for slavery we probably wouldn't have Okra in the South.I am an avid hunter,Deer and Elk mostly,not roadkill.
Do you use a Gas or Electric Kiln?What About Raku or Egyptian Paste?
Oh it must be disappointing about the women being larger than size 2 or 3.
Fortunately I'll only be there for three or four days.Thanks again.-

Timeless Rogue

March 21st, 2006, 05:03 PM

I was trying to lighten the tone, guess it didnt work, i'm sure we're all intelligent people.
timeless, thanks for asking. We actually had one day in the 80's last week--then a bad outbreak of tornadoes as it cooled down. lot of people lost homes, several lives lost. -----but-- i planted potatoes, radish, onions, carrots and lettuce-now snow is predicted for tommorow!
crazy weather, isnt it?

Hi, Ceresone ... yes, it has been a crazy weather-year up here too. We had Fall 'til January with a month or so of temps in the 40's and 50's ... and then Winter hit! But not viciously ... for instance, the snowfall was far below normal and for the most part is gone here on the farm. But now it's Spring (granted, only since Monday) and we're in the deep freeze ... we haven't been more that a couple of degrees above freezing ... but generally below ... for about three weeks now and looking at another week or so of that! Yikes, I'm sure ready for a change! Can't even put a garden in yet!

But ... what's to complain about, right? We've had nothing like what you've gone through down there. It's always sad to hear of the loss of home and life even when it's strangers.

Hope your fresh garden survives this next couple of storms and Spring comes on strong for all of us ...

Russ

dirtundernails

March 21st, 2006, 09:07 PM

Z- No, women are supposed to be soft. I'm 5' 7" and used to weigh 98 pounds. It was rough finding size 0. Now I've gained ten pounds with each of four kids and ten for my hubby, too. See, I can go between meals without fainting, now, and can hit a wall without bruising.
Kiln's electric, as is wheel. No raku or Egyptian paste, just boring ol' learning. Once skill level is up, will go wood fired and kick wheel.
Didn't see Deliverance and don't care to, don't own a TV. So, I still don't know your banjo players in the Ozarks answer, besides not having met any banjo players YET.

Ceresone- I'm glad you started this thread. Manners are important. The responses here are just what I would expect from such a varied group of people who are gonna step up to the plate and swing their bat. So thanks for sayin' it.

dun

zebraman

March 22nd, 2006, 12:24 PM

Hey Dirtundernails;There is nothing boring about learning.Your Husband answered question Re.Banjo players.Most of the Photo's I have seen of your area have been beautiful and bucolic.Alot of them are shrouded in mist or haze?I too love the differences between the posters.None of my Tall thin model type friends that have had children can still do the catwalk.Oh there are a few but they're nuts.We will be at Columbia Univ.in St.louis so we will probably miss the armadillo hunt.Do you guys have Starbucks there?

JereGettle

March 22nd, 2006, 12:35 PM

Zebra:

Whats a Star Buck?

Mostly whitetails and a few jackalopes, :)

zebraman

March 22nd, 2006, 01:42 PM

Hey Jere;You did state on another post that you do have Trader Joe's which means life can't be ALL BAD in MO.There is a Taxidermy/Pawn shop on Hollywood Blvd.that sell stuffed Jackalopes.Aren't there more exotic fauna that you can kill with a gun in MO?Anyway I'll also be checking out Riverboat cruises that go to the Gulf.Any suggestions?I would prefer less 4 Star and more Rustic-Vintage experience.I do mean within reason.No Huckleberry Finn raft for me.

Cliff Timmons

March 23rd, 2006, 06:44 AM

Zebra:

Whats a Star Buck?

Mostly whitetails and a few jackalopes, :)
:D :D

PhilosopherStorm

March 23rd, 2006, 08:02 AM

Ceresone,

Do not regret starting this thread. While I agree that there are larger issues, such as government infringement on our lives (animal ids being but one example, severe regulation being another) if we mistakenly believe that civility and honesty can be abandoned in beacause we are interested in those issues, we have truly abandoned any hope of correcting them.

Consider that we have seen dishonest representations of bills, completely absurd accusations in response to citing the actual bills in question. If we abandon honesty then we find that we can get easily caught up in supporting those efforts which are against our own interests as well as against the very idea of responsibility. This is one of the things that was happening of late on this forum.

Sadly too we saw the practice of employing personal attacks against anyone willing to read and cite the bills, or other facts in what is clearly an effort to silence voices speaking for responsibility, honesty, and just treatment. An honest error would have been followed by apology or correction once the facts were revealed, not by further insult and dishonesty. Had we simply ignored these tactics, then the issues become clouded by falsehoods to the point that it is all but impossible for us to determine what has actually been said, what is actually being done, and what the actual arguments/facts are.

All of which leaves off the overwhelming benefits of civility and reason. Why lose customers, if one is a businessman, simply because you are afraid of losing face by admitting error, so employ personal attacks and insults? Why lose the potential strength of united voices in opposition to unjust and illegal activities (including the animal id and other regulation) simply because one does not want to be bothered to be honest and civil? Nothing is lost by admitting error where it exists, in fact it shows a great strength of character as well as the desire for truth over image.

Just for the record, just to be perfectly clear, the "you" used in the previous paragraph is generic, not in any way directed at you Ceresone.

Those who have employed personal attacks and insults, or edited honest, civil, reasoned posts under the false pretense of "braking the rules"(sic) are actively working against the effort to encourage responsibility, to fight injustice in the form of these regulations (including animal id), and are obviously actively fighting honest and civil discussion. There is no other possible explanation. Without thread such as this which shine a light directly upon such uncivil, dishonest, and unreasonable behavior, such behaviors will usually go largely unnoticed, and their effect thus magnified.

I know that I appreciate the opportunity to interact with good, honest, civil individuals who share a love of gardening, and who largely support individual responsibility. However that appreciation is no so great in my own case that I can see any benefit coming from pretending that dishonesty is honest, that incivility is civil, or that personal attacks are "entertainment" as they were called in a previous thread.

So my heartfelt thanks goes to you for starting this thread. Hopefully the tone and the actions will change in those threads where disagreements may arise. One of the rare traits which we need to encourage is the ability to disagree with respect. We encourage this by being respectful, honest, civil, and reasonable. Or to use your word, by having manners..

PS

JereGettle

March 23rd, 2006, 10:12 AM

Howdy Storm!

"One of the rare traits which we need to encourage is the ability to disagree with respect."

Sounds wonderful!

That should be a new rull!

--Geritol

PhilosopherStorm

March 24th, 2006, 09:15 AM

Sounds good to me Jere, and given past behaviors you are in a wonderful position to set an example in this regard. Had your reaction to the direct refutations of your claims about the bills, including the citing of the exactly language of the bill, been civil rather than emotional and insulting, that thread may have continued in a positive manner. So too with the false accusations made in the editing of honest, civil, posts which contained NOTHING which violated any of the stated rules.

Recall that all of my criticism of your own comments have been about the failure to show basic respect for others with whom you disagree. I have no problem with others holding different opinions or desires, but as I said, we can disagree with respect without the sort of name calling and false accusations already noted.

I would also note that respect for others does include accepting facts that are not flattering to one's position. Denying those facts which others have carefully cited and supported denies the value of the other, as well as denying the value of reasoned discussion.

PS

dirtundernails

March 24th, 2006, 12:10 PM

Hubby of DUN here.

With the most serious and respectful of attitudes here, I have a question of PhilosipherStorm:

You obvoiusly have taken offense and feel wronged by the actions of others on the forum.

At what point, if someone does not apologize in a manner that you feel is appropriate, do you "drop it"?

A week, a month, a year? Ten posts? one hundred, or one thousand?

To help save you some typing in your imminent reply, you do not have to recount the details again. (please.)
Anyone who is a reader of this forum have had them recounted frequently enough to know the nature of your gripe.

So..... Please just give a simple and straightforward answer. If the offending party does NOT apologize or in some form capitulate in a manner that you feel you somehow deserve, when will you drop it and go on with life? Is it a date, or a specific number of posts... or will you drag this thing around forever, until you feel you have "won".

Respectfully.

HOD.

PhilosopherStorm

March 24th, 2006, 12:56 PM

There is no issue of "winning" as one would hope would have been perfectly clear already. (Why make this assumption??)

What is apparently being missed, is the consistency in simply sticking to the truth. The claims of the bill were not merely false, but absurdly false and so I cited the facts quoting directly from the bill. So too with the false accusations by Jere. As long as those false accusations are repeated, or supported, then they will be refuted.

Let me turn this around, at what point would you recommend abandoning reason, abandoning truth, and accepting false accusations? At what point do lies become true?

As to your simple answer, your question is fundamentally flawed in that it assumes an identity of truth value between truth and lie. The simple answer is that truth is correspondence with reality, so falsehood never corresponds with reality.

This is not a competition. Nothing even hints at this in my own posts.

When the false assertions stop, the need for refutations stop.

Another question then for you, why introduce this red herring distracting from the thread and insinuating that my responses are anything other than exactly what they are? What gives?

kimpossible

March 24th, 2006, 02:28 PM

:confused: O.K. - enough is enough. :( PLEASE, ADMINISTRATORS ... Is it time to lock this thread??? That 2nd last paragraph as an analogy was going a little too far :eek: . Lets talk about gardening. :D

zebraman

March 24th, 2006, 04:01 PM

Wanda Holloway-TX
Andrea Yates-TX
Philosopher Storm-TX
There Has to be "Something" in the Water.-

LoreD

March 24th, 2006, 04:17 PM

Same old song. Same old dance. Over and over and over again.

WHEN WILL IT EVER END?

That analogy was really crazy.

dirtundernails

March 24th, 2006, 05:16 PM

HOD here.

Kim. Locking the thread would not help, since it will not stop PS from the whine-fest in every other thread. Sorry.

LoreD. It won't end. Not till someone takes their ball and goes home. :(

PS. Never, huh. :confused: Somehow I thought you were man enough to walk away.

I was wrong. Too bad. So, in my best W.C. Feilds voice.... "Go away kid, ya bother me."

I guess I should have noted the "Storm" part of the name. Think, Tornado, Hurricane, thunderstorm. All have one thing in common. Lots of wind, usually going in circles..... :rolleyes:

Oh yeah... This is the "off topic" part of the forum. Lots of non gardening stuff here. Thats what the off topic is about.

Oh well.... At least this forum is equipped with what us old unix admins call "twit filters." They were created specifically because there is a certain percentage of users who just don't work or play well with others.

So.... Any good recipies for shoe pie, since, I am sure that with the above I have just stuffed both my size 12's in bout as far as they can go.

One grouchy old father of 4, hubby of dun...

HOD.

redbrick

March 24th, 2006, 07:03 PM

'Fraid I don't know any good recipes. I've always eaten mine fresh! :D

CruzAK

March 25th, 2006, 12:27 AM

Isn't this thread supposed to be all about manners? and what has happend to good manners?

Pharmerphil

March 25th, 2006, 05:10 AM

P.S.,
Although I shouldn't, I am going to tell you, the analogy that you used above, is beyond the limit. Do you realize that this, or any forum, is veiwable by children?, legally 13 and above. Even without that, in your mind, do you believe that this very long thread is posing a good example for younger folks?
Lock the thread, Actually, the post above, posted on my forum, and You my friend, would be banned.
This in No Way is a reflection on, or in objection to how Jere runs this board, just the rules I follow.
I believe that your honest answer, and of course the appropriate answer would be: never. To do otherwise is to have no self respect, no integrity, nor connection with reality. But please correct me if I am mistaken...

To procede with your posting, in your mind shows you have integrity, that you are connected with reality, that you have SELF RESPECT.

But in reality shows you have No Respect for others, who may view this thread, or any thread.

Any time someone posts, I just wish they would consider others, consider WHOM, may be viewing it, would you like your teenage son/daughter reading this, is the constant bickering , the onslaught of pointed remarks a sign of integrity?
So, the answer is a very strong YES, you are mistaken, and out of line.
And for reality, refer to my mention of the viewers, consider everyone.
If this continues, you will slowly diminish the interaction, the visitors, and yes even the members here, Is that what you want?
I know I have cut back on my visits here, I haven't tiime to read posts that go on for ever, or posts made by someone that feels they are right, everyone else is wrong, and they are going to pursue it till everyone justs stops visiting the forum.
What do you think...standby for...REALITY CHECK everyone really thinks of a person who assumes that their answers are always accurate and apropos?

DUN, this excerpt from your post:
I guess I should have noted the "Storm" part of the name. Think, Tornado, Hurricane, thunderstorm. All have one thing in common. Lots of wind, usually going in circles.....
YES, DAMAGING WINDS...(are they also full of HOT AIR) ;)

If there was a list here, of those very tired and done reading this drivel, and who may limit or even stop visiting this very fine community, due to this kind of bull...my name would be at the top
Maybe we should just start one!
Pharmer Phil :(

LoreD

March 25th, 2006, 07:17 AM

Thank you, Pharmerphil,

I too cut back on my posting on this site and I have noticed that people who were active posters are no longer here. We have become a very small group.

Storm has become an online stalker. I thought that he should have been banned when he referred to specific members of the forum and Baker Creek as liars, thieves, and dishonest. I think that Storm has reached the end of everyone's patience.

LoreD

PhilosopherStorm

March 25th, 2006, 07:44 AM

CruzAK,

I keep wondering the same, especially with this latest round of absurd personal attacks.

Perhaps the personal attacks and insults will be deleted once the moderators notice them. For the sake of the forum let's hope so.

HOD,

I take it then that you have no interestin in honestly examining your own assertions? You asked for honest answers and I certainly gave them, yet you failed to even consider the implications of your suggestions, or the fact that you had taken this from a discussion of manners to negative implications about a particular individual.

To make matters worse instead of discussing the issues, you choose to employ insults (Repeatedly at that!) the very problem which is being addressed!

PharmerPhil,

The appeal "to the children" is irrelevant and of course is nothing more than a red herring. Why take issue with the CITING of personal attacks, rather than with the personal attacks? Shooting the messenger (or worse yet the target of the insults) will never fix the problem. As they say in the twelve step programs, the first step is to admit you have a problem! :)

As for your claims about respect, objectively speaking you are completely in error. Notice the differences here. In asserting that I show no respect by honestly considering and civilly responding to questions and posts, you engage in ad hominem, red herring, and out-right falsehoods directed not at an idea or even an issue, but of course at an individual. At the same time your supporters are likewise engaging in personal attacks and insults along the very path which you are blazing. So from your post we can deduce that what you consider "respect" includes insults, personnal attacks and falsehoods.

I contend that each of these fall far short of the mark with regard to respect.

[quuote] What do you think...standby for...REALITY CHECK everyone really thinks of a person who assumes that their answers are always accurate and apropos?[/quote]

Self description and irony at its finest!

As for my own comments, one need only compare them to reason and reality. I do not rely upon self-reference, as you have done, but rather upon reference to reality and basic reason. By all means actually compare the facts to reality and notice the identity relation. (The threads in the politics of food area serve very nicely, where direct quotes have been employed, and unfortunately denied by others..)

Fine you do not like people being honest. I get that. You do not like people denying the character assassination. I get that. You do not like people standing up for what is right, again I get it. None of which changes reality, nor makes honest civil posts anything disrespectful.

Since you say you would ban anyone who dares to not simply be dishonest, to not accept false accusations as true, and who is willing to respectfully disagree, there would be no need to ban be, for I am not one to participate in a troll farm, which is what you are describing as you desired type of forum.

Better to have the maturity and willingness to discuss issues honestly, civilly, and reasonably.

For the record I do not control who visits here. I would contend that you are again in error in asserting that the problem lay NOT with the personal attacks but with being the subject of the personal attacks. As the previous analogy alluded to, which was clearly never even considered by HOD or yourself (choosing instead to engage in personal attacks and blind irrational emoting) this is akin to blaming the rape victim rather than the rapist.

The error in logic which you are employing here is called putting the cart before the horse. You have completely reversed the causal relationships, as well as simply chosen to abandon reason in favor of insults and false accusations.

I am sorry to see such sorry behavior myself as I have enjoyed your posts, as well as those of HUD, and certainly I thought better of both of you. Hopefully this is just a hiccough and you will choose to return to good civil posts. In the meantime, please do not blame me for your choice to be insulting and uncivil.

kimpossible

March 25th, 2006, 08:36 AM

I have a "helpful hint" for those who might be interested...

Some people will continue ad nauseum as long as they have an audience. If they lose their audience, then they will go away :) !

To make them go away, if they don't have the sense to do it on their own, click on their name, then "view public profile". There you will see an option to "IGNORE" them :rolleyes: . Click on that. Then submit ;) !

TA DA!!!! :D Poof :D They vanish!

Thanks to another member for reminding me of that feature.

LoreD

March 25th, 2006, 09:12 AM

Thank you so MUCH KImpossible,

What a relief to see all of those sobbing, whiny, and boring posts disappear.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!!!!!!!!

LoreD

PhilosopherStorm

March 25th, 2006, 11:01 AM

Though I am loathe to see it, the showing of true colors is indeed practical. I truly hate to see gardening folks devolve into the sorts of behaviors which are being shown here in opposition to the notion of basic respect for persons and civility.

For the record, the name which you are ridiculing is my given name, and stands for new beginnings and much needed rejuvenation that storms bring.

It appears that the motto is "insult and be praised, defend yourself against insults and be attacked." I know that I could not look myself in the mirror were I to adopt such an outlook, nor were I to treat others with the hatred and bigotry which is being demonstrated. I am truly sorry to see that even those who love to work with the earth can be so hateful towards others for no other reason than those others do not engage in personal attacks and insults.