seed saving and trading questions

[werecat]

Ok I got my seed to seed book and have begun reading it and as much as I wanted to save myown seeds, if I have to grow so many plants to save seeds from a fruit or two from each plant, I just don't have enough room for that. I mean, 8 of each of the squash and melons??? I wouldnt have any room for anything but them. Unless I could trade seed with someone for the same seed. Like if Zebraman (just a name pulled out of my hat cause he seems so nice and friendly :) )and I were growing the same type of squash and I could trade some of my seed for some of his seed so we would both have a better genetic mix? would that work?

Also, what is the policy on begging for seed? There are some seeds on my wish list that I am hoping would grow, but I just dont know how well they would do. Like hunan winged bean. It says hot and humid. I live in Illinois and it gets hot and humid here, but not like tropical hot and humid so I don't know how it would do. Would it be ok to say in January that I would dearly love it if someone could spare say 4 or 5 seeds for that just so I could try and see how they did?

Lisa

[Brook]

Lisa,

It's always better to grow the minimum number of plants, so as to preserve the genetic make-up of the population. If not, the variety soon runs out; showing a lack of genetic vigor.

One solution is to get together with friends and relatives, all of whom grow the same variety to the required number. That is, let's say a minimum of 20 plants is required. If five of you each grow five plants, that more than assures the full genetic package. At the end of the year you take all the saved seed, mix it up, and redistribute it so that everybody is likely to have the whole mix.

BTW, where did you get that 8 each figure? The recommended minimum plant quantity for cucurbits---which are outbreedeers----is 24 plants. SSE goes that one better and recommends 30 plants as the minimum for outbreeders.

[Brook]

Just a further note.

What you should consider is saving seed from those plant types it is feasible for, given your conditions, and don't worry about the rest.

That would include virtually all the self-pollinators (in theory only one plant is required, but three is better, and five is ideal). Be leery, though, as self-pollinating doesn't mean they can't be pollinated by other means. Tomatoes are fairly safe with minimal separation. But peppers will cross if you look at them cockeyed.

Some types require lots of plants, but can be grown in small spaces using intensive methods. For instance, beans should be saved from a minimum of 20 plants. But you can grow as many as 50 pole bean plants in a space only 5 feet by 12 inches.

Now here's the key. By saving what makes sense for you, you not only provide your own seed needs, you can then use the excess to trade with for the stuff you want but can't save seed of. Maybe trade a particular tomato, for instance, for a melon that you want to grow. Sometimes this gets complex, with 3-way and even 4-way swaps to get the specific variety you want. But most often it's a simple one-to-one deal.

[werecat]

The minimum of 8 to 15 for the home gardener was mentioned in the seed to seed book as being ok for the home gardener with limited space. Darn it! I'm just out of luck. I certinly dont have the space to grow that many of any one plant and since I am going to be the only one to grow anything I wont be able to mix anything unless maybe I can work up a local group with an add in the paper or something. :( Crud! and I really liked the idea of saving seeds.

{QUOTE=Brook]Lisa,

It's always better to grow the minimum number of plants, so as to preserve the genetic make-up of the population. If not, the variety soon runs out; showing a lack of genetic vigor.

One solution is to get together with friends and relatives, all of whom grow the same variety to the required number. That is, let's say a minimum of 20 plants is required. If five of you each grow five plants, that more than assures the full genetic package. At the end of the year you take all the saved seed, mix it up, and redistribute it so that everybody is likely to have the whole mix.

BTW, where did you get that 8 each figure? The recommended minimum plant quantity for cucurbits---which are outbreedeers----is 24 plants. SSE goes that one better and recommends 30 plants as the minimum for outbreeders.[/QUOTE]

[zebraman]

Hey Werecat;I do have the winged Bean,but the problem has to do with how far you are from the Equator.They do not begin to flower until the Fall and wont produce beans untill around Sept-Nov.So you would need hot weather during this period as well.They are not very productive here.-

[werecat]

Hey Werecat;I do have the winged Bean,but the problem has to do with how far you are from the Equator.They do not begin to flower until the Fall and wont produce beans untill around Sept-Nov.So you would need hot weather during this period as well.They are not very productive here.-
Yeah, that was sort of what I was afraid of. :( Do you think it would help if I started them indoors really really early? I can make really big newspaper pots to grow them in? I'm also going to see if maybe I can get a Yahoo group going to save seeds locally and maybe that will help with the diverse genetic thing.

[bluelacedredhead]

Lisa,
What your new book is suggesting is not an option available to you at this time. But it shouldn't prevent you from starting to save seed, even just by yourself.
I'd wager that the majority of the members here didn't start out saving seeds on that grand a scale. I know I certainly didn't, and I still don't.

I was introduced to seed saving in the late 1980's, by an elderly neighbour. He had been given some tomato seed by an old Italian man up the road. My neighbour had been growing this seed since the 1940's and never knew the name of the tomato.

They were as one with the microclimate of his backyard garden after almost 50 years of being grown there and were the most beautiful tomatoes I had ever seen. NO, I never had the nerve to ask for seed. But it did pique my interest in saving seed; wanting to be able to grow something as beautiful as they were.

But I've never had the opportunity to combine gene pools with others. No one in my family gardens (at least not veggies) and my friends are all far, far away.
So I just do it here and save seed from my best two or three of each variety of veg..
Works for me..

[werecat]

Lisa,
What your new book is suggesting is not an option available to you at this time. But it shouldn't prevent you from starting to save seed, even just by yourself.
I'd wager that the majority of the members here didn't start out saving seeds on that grand a scale. I know I certainly didn't, and I still don't.

I was introduced to seed saving in the late 1980's, by an elderly neighbour. He had been given some tomato seed by an old Italian man up the road. My neighbour had been growing this seed since the 1940's and never knew the name of the tomato.

They were as one with the microclimate of his backyard garden after almost 50 years of being grown there and were the most beautiful tomatoes I had ever seen. NO, I never had the nerve to ask for seed. But it did pique my interest in saving seed; wanting to be able to grow something as beautiful as they were.

But I've never had the opportunity to combine gene pools with others. No one in my family gardens (at least not veggies) and my friends are all far, far away.
So I just do it here and save seed from my best two or three of each variety of veg..
Works for me..

Thanks Redhead. :D I still may putter around with a website and forum set up for a local group just as a rainy day project. This is a very rural community and has a pretty good amount of local schools with agriculture classes on the high school level. Maybe when I get everything organized, I might donate some packets of heirloom seeds and newspaper pots to local agriculture classes with a sheet of notes on heirloom gardening (researched of course since I am such a newbie myself) and the address to the site I am fooling around with and see if maybe I can get a local group together from there. Untill then it is nice to hear that maybe the world wont end and my plants wont curl up and die if I don't have room for 20 of each of everything. ;)

[flowerpower]

I am not much of a veggie seed saver. I worry too much about cross-pollination. Learned my lesson with flower seeds.

This year I am growing about 9 diff types of squash/pumpkin. I let them all sprawl in a big patch and do their thing. I will hand-pollinate some plants occasionally. But I wouldn't try to save seed from them.

[boston]

I was planning on getting that book and was going to learn how to start saving my own seed but from what you say I dont know if I'll be able to. :(

I could probably expand my garden if I needed to, but it is about the right size for me to take care of and if I grew that many plants I would have more than I need and I hate to see good food go to waste.

[werecat]

I was planning on getting that book and was going to learn how to start saving my own seed but from what you say I dont know if I'll be able to. :(

I could probably expand my garden if I needed to, but it is about the right size for me to take care of and if I grew that many plants I would have more than I need and I hate to see good food go to waste.

You don't have to waste it if you don't want to. If you don't or cant have a bigger garden, that is fine. But don't ever feel you would have to waste food. Trust me there are people that would be more than happy to take any surplus off your hands that you are willing to share! Food pantries, domestic violence shelters, homeless shelters, soup kitchens, if you don't know where these places are, call your local police dept and ask them how to contact one of these places and I am sure they would be willing to help. Or for that matter, just take baskets of home grown stuff to the local police and fire departments as a thank you. Never let anything go to waste. Someone can always make use of it. :)

[boston]

I guess waste was probably not a good choice of words. Just saying It would probably be more than I could eat b4 it goes bad. I am the only one who eats a lot of the stuff I grow cuz my family is such picky eaters. Like one year my wife said we eat grean beans so grow some. Well I did and they didnt like them cuz they are so use to the over-cooked over-processed stor bought stuff. :mad: I thought they tasted O.K.

I live in a small town so we have no shelters or things like that to donate to. I am sure I could find people who would take some of my extra.

[JackiMac]

What Brook says is true...for ideal seed saving....my way is NOT ideal but it works for me.
I grow on a very,very small scale. I save all my tomato seeds - have NEVER had any trouble and I'm getting pretty good at it by now ;)
I grow all of my tomatoes in 5 gal. containers. I grow some bell and hot peppers also in containters and save those seeds...I keep them seperated and had only my first year of seed saving bomb...not one germinated and I had done alot of trades with those....but everyone who contacted me about them understood and the following season we tried more trades and my pepper seed did germinate! Woohooo!
I save my bean seed...I usually plant bush beans because I can grow them in containers and in my 2nd raised bed...close planting does the trick with limited space but I have to be on my toes and watch for any fungus or bugs since being so close they can get diseases easier in my hot and very humid weather...the pole beans go in my 1st raised bed - both are about 7' by 4' - see? We are talking SMALL gardening here ;) LOL...I am blonde so forgive me but, I didn't know you could plant the pole beans so close together and still have them do well!! lol lol I guess I better get out there and start putting even more seeds in the ground! - Anyway...I do save the pole bean seeds as well....I try to stick with a couple of different varieties each year so the chance of crossing is lower. I grow squash and those I get are usually semi-bush types for the containers - the vines go in the beds along with the melons...I can't grow more than 4 - 6 melons at a time but I save those seeds that I can - I get a little but usually enough to trade off for more tomato seeds (I am a tomato hound :eek: )...also been growing okra for the first time this year and I have one small patch of Burgundy okra and black valentine underneath since the okra are tall growers...hope it works. I didn't realize that the okras would cross so readily and I have some clemson and burgundy and cow horn all together and those I won't save seed from that is why I have the other patch of just one okra and the beans...saves space and no chance of crossing. Next spring I will plant lettuce, spinach and radish and ATTEMPT to save seed for the first time :p

I wish you luck werecat and I think you could save seed...maybe you won't get a huge amount but probably enough for yourself and some trades. :cool:

[goldpearl]

Werecat,
I hope you give seed saving a try this year. Just start with something easy. Beans are a good beginner seed saving choice. They rarely cross except white beans. :)

[TastyofHasty]

I want to save seeds, too, so ... first thing was ... went to the LIBRARY and got the Seed to Seed book by Susan Ashworth ... to read AGAIN :rolleyes: . And Brook says "self pollinated" plants are okay to save seed from, so a quick check of the 'net says ... which veggies are self pollinated(?) ...
aha!
From http://www.seeds.ca/vend/forsale.php (Seeds of Diversity)
"Self-pollinating vegetables (beans, eggplant, lettuce, okra, peas, peppers, tomatoes) "

... PEPPERS???? didn't somebody say they cross if you look at 'em cockeyed??? uh? :confused: well, time to go read the book AGAIN ...

[bluelacedredhead]

Tasty,
taking books out of the library over and over is what the library is all about. I do that until the book starts to disintegrate. Then, if I really think that I'll miss that particular book once it's gone from the library shelves...I go to Amazon or Abes and buy my own copy. ;)

[Brook]

Tasty, if you're going to use me as an expert witness, you need to listen to the complete testimony. :)

Here's what I said: "That would include virtually all the self-pollinators (in theory only one plant is required, but three is better, and five is ideal). Be leery, though, as self-pollinating doesn't mean they can't be pollinated by other means. Tomatoes are fairly safe with minimal separation. But peppers will cross if you look at them cockeyed."

Peppers are self fertilizing. But they can also be pollinated by insect activity, so if you grow more than one variety at a time (of the same species) you have to use isolation techniques if you're going to save seed.

Okra is in the same class. It's big, showy flowers are very attractive to pollinators, and varieties can cross if you don't take appropriate steps.

Lettuce is in a separate class. In theory, lettuce _could_ cross pollinate. It's done in the laboratory all the time. But in practical terms it doesn't because you have isolated by time, even if you are unaware of it. For instance, variety A's flowers only open at 9 in the morning, and stay receptive for one hour. Variety B's flowers don't open until 10:30. So variety B never gets a chance to pollinate variety A. Lettuces really do have tiny windows of opportunity like that.

I have a friend who plants lettuce rows 4 inches apart. She has never knowingly gotten any crosses.

The reason most tomatoes are safe isn't because they are self-pollinators. It's because, with the exception of Current tomatoes, potato-leaf types, and (perhaps) double-blossomed beefsteak types, tomatoes have unextruded stiles. Because of this, pollen just isn't readily available to insects.

Ok, so why can you save seed from so few self-pollinators? Simple enough. They are highly in-bred (just the way hybrids are). As such, every fruit (supposing there has been no cross or mutation) contains the complete genetic make-up of the entire population. We save seed from more than one plant, when possible, in case such crosses or mutations have occured.

[TastyofHasty]

Brook, you are a far better re-source than the library (book(s))! And bluelaced, hee hee! I reely wuz raised to be v-e-e-r-r-y careful of library books! What gets me is when the gol-durned library goes and SELLS one of my favorite books!!! By taking 'em out all the time, the library gets the idea they should KEEP 'em (which is good!). Our library here nearly sold one of my all-time favorites, called "Alternate (or Alternative) Energy," by Time-Life Books. The librarian asked ME if it was worth keeping, though ... and I told her ABSOLUTELY! IT HAS STUFF I'VE NEVER SEEN ANYPLACE ELSE! LIKE A SOLAR CHIMNEY. They don't even have it on the internet! DON'T SELL IT!!! ARRRGGGHHH!!!"

To get back to the subject at hand (pant pant) ... um :o ... Brook, you said
Peppers are self fertilizing. But they can also be pollinated by insect activity, so if you grow more than one variety at a time (of the same species) you have to use isolation techniques if you're going to save seed.
ahem. What is meant by "of the same species?" For instance, will paprika peppers cross with green bell peppers(??) And believe me, all the stuff you are writing is really interesting!

Another for instance: I've got several artichoke plants that grew from one lot of seed called "Golden Globe." The book says not to plant from seed, but to divide the artichoke plants you like in the fall. But I don't know how to divide, and although there are slight differences amongst the artichokes (some are more purplish, some have pointy petals, others have dents in each petal), they are all good for eating; and the seed from any of the artichokes will grow artichokes like one or the other of the artichokes presently in my garden (right?) 'cause I'm the only one for miles around raising artichokes. And all the artichokes, even with the slight differences, are called "Golden Globe." So why not save the seed as "Golden Globe?"

[Brook]

Species means species, Tasty. Taxonomically, living things are identified by placing them in categories, starting with Kingdom (i.e., plant or animal), and moving progressively down the chain. The idea is to divide them by what they have in common, while excluding what they don't.

When it gets to garden plants, the last four divisions are what concern us, and mostly the last three. The final four are Family, Genus, Species, Variety (or cultivar).

Don't be put off by the latin. Instead, think of it this way. You want to buy a new car. The kingdom is "automobile." Then you work down the categories until you get to the last four. The family "American made," the genus "Ford," the species "SUV" and the variety "Explorer"

See how simple it really is. And no, don't thank me. Steven Foster (the herb guy, not the songwriter) thought up that analogy, so thank him.

Peppers, along with tomatoes, eggplant, potatoes, and a bunch of others belong to the family Solanaceae. The peppers are in the genus Capsicum.

There are five species of domestic capsicums: C. annuum, C. baccatum, C. chinense, C. frutescens, and C. pubescens. Varieties in each species will cross with each other, but not with varieties in other species.

That, by the way, is the general rule. Plants will cross intra-species, but not inter-species, and that's often one way of isolating them.

Trouble is, about 80% of the peppers grown in the U.S. are C. annuum. So, yes, it's quite likely that your paprika peppers can cross with the bells.

What I know about artichokes can be written inside a matchbook with a grease pencil. But there has to be a reason the literature says to propagate vegetatively. Maybe it's one of the "ploids," like potatoes (another one we don't grow from seed, btw).

Don't ask what diploids and triploids are. The explanation is long, confusing, and you won't know anymore than you did before. Suffice it to say that the genetic makeup of such plants is, itself, confusing, and seed is unlikely to grow true to type.

Plant division is rather easy. Just dig them up, in the fall, and, literally, divide the root balls. This may (depending on type of plant) mean anything from just snapping them apart with your hands to cutting them with an axe. Replant the divisions, and in the spring each will form a new plant.

Plant division usually is done either in the fall or the early spring. The plant should be dormant at the time, is why.

What I can't tell you is how big a root ball is required by artichokes. That, too, is something that varies. Comfrey can be divided into numerous sections only an inch long. Two year old echinacea, on the other hand, should only be divided into two pieces. And bulbing plants can be separated so that each bulb forms a new plant.

I suspect that artichokes are the same as echinacea. Just divide each one into two parts and replant them.

[zebraman]

Hey Guys;With Artichokes it is Really easy Spot the off-shoots and you can easily divide them without digging up the entire plant.-

[veggiecanner]

This what I do to plant all the nessasary plants
Year 1: from a pk of seeds grow out 4 plants, save seed from 2-4 plants.
Year 2: grow 2 from original pk and 2 from saved seed.
Year 3: grow 2 from orginal pk and 1 from each last 2 years.
year 4: grow 1 from original pk and 1 from each last 3 years.
Any way you get the idea. if the plants all grow true to form them eventually I start mixing them. You get lots to trade this way.
Some one suggested buying a pk from some one else and mixing it in everyonce in awhile.

[TastyofHasty]

I spent some time reading Seed to Seed last night.

Here's a coupla pics of broccoli (flowering now! just planted it this Spring(?)) and roquette a/k/a arugula seed ... Gotta say roquette is PURTY. These two are both brassicas but con't cross 'cause they're different SPECIES (brassica oleracea and eruca sativa, respectively) ... right?

She mentions all sorts of interesting-sounding veggies! Has anybody here tried SCORZONERA (Black Salsify) (Scorzonera hispanica) an oyster-flavored root(?)

[Brook]

That would be correct: broccoli and roquette shouldn't cross. Besides which, roquette can bolt to seed in its first year, so you could isolate by timing if that were necessary.

Scorzonera is related to Salsify, and both are commonly called oyster plant. I've never noticed an oyster-like flavor to either of them myself.

Keep in mind that they both have very long growing seasons, and it might not make sense for you to grow them because you tie-up an awful lot of space, for an incredibly long time for something you may not care for (most people do not like either of them, particularly).

[TastyofHasty]

I've never noticed an oyster-like flavor to either of them myself.

Oh, too bad! :(

Veggiecanner, if I ever get into "trading," I will want to trade with YOU!!
:D

[moonlightmadness]

I have an old tomato that i save seed from every year.
It's a large red that has ridges kinda like a beefsteak..
I am been saving the seed since 1965 and its worth
the trouble....Here is how i save my tomato seed.....
I choose several nice tomatoes and crush them by hand.
I lay them in full sun to completely dry...I pick out the
seed and pulp and put in a 5 gallon bucket of water...
The next day i pick out the seed that is floating on top,
The good seed floats,,,,and the bad seed sink........

[GrowTheSeeds]

For those who may be interested in saving tomato seeds Victory Seeds has posted a step by step with pictures for saving tomato seeds
http://www.victoryseeds.com/information/seedsave_tomato.html

[Gary]

The Victory Seeds directions give the ferminatation process a more preferred method. After two or three days the seed have ferminted and you then flush with fresh water and the pulp floats away. Continue this process and all the good seed settle to the bottom. It is like panning for gold -- just what they did in the old days! Mark a paper plate with the name of the variety and turn seed into it to dry in a safe place. This process elimates any diseases/bacteria which might affect germination/growth if unferminated.
Gary/Louisaville